Need some suggestions on replacing broken PVC pipe...
 

Hi all. Here's the story. Broken PVC pipe under the paver stones. This is a return line to the pool (sends water back to the pool from the filter / heater equipment). Our area has a lot of land movement, and the pipe broke at the 45-degree joint. This is the 2nd 45-degree joint like this that has broken. I had the other one repaired by someone else for $750 last year, which I thought was really expensive at the time. This time, they wanted $950. Seems like about three hours of work. Could be cheaper to hire my attorney to repair the pipe, but that's a discussion for the politics OT forum.

So, I can cut the pipe back and replace a fitting, but the 45-degree bend makes "traditional" repair solutions a bit unrealistic. Since this is a pressure-side pipe, I was thinking of putting in a flexible coupling here - like FlexPVC or even some type of heater hose. I'm not sure how durable that would be underground. I was also thinking of putting a little box around the connection with some wood, so if I have to reach it again, I don't have to dig too far underground.

I'm leaning towards cutting off the fitting (already started to chip away at it), and then attaching some of that FlexPVC to perform the repair, and also to maintain some flexibility in the pipe. I'm hoping there are no more 45-degree bends like these along this pipe - I'm actually not sure why they were installed there to begin with.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

-Wayne

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I had a very similar break (in a 45º underground) earlier this summer.
(and a corresponding thread)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1123935-best-broken-underground-pvc-pipe-fix.html

The solution that the plumber used was to use 4x 90º in a vertical "bridge". Since those 90s can be rotated you can get whatever angle you need out of them.

Cut out the 45, add 90s and short vertical pieces, then 2 more 90s and a horizontal piece of the correct length to connect it all together. It also gives some flex.

WHat a huge pain in the rear to have your break right there with all of the other stuff in the ground.

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Also, we have mostly clay here. WHen we are dry, we get a lot of movement. We had a very dry summer and ended up with 3 broken pipes because of it. The plumber said " when you fill the hole in around that fix, use sand/play sand. The sand will allow more movement/flex and be less likely to break again. Seems reasonable to me so that's what I did.

That looks like a pretty nice solution, Steve.
Is it possible to also use some flex PVC on the 'top' piece of the fix?

Wayne, you should be thankful it's under the pavers and not buried in concrete like my brother's pipe problem was. He decided to just cap off the bad section of pipe rather than bust up his new concrete.

I don't see why you couldn't use flex PVC.

In all 3 of the breaks that we've had this year, they have been in the very middle of a coupling of some sort, 1x coupling, 1x 45º, and 1x 90º. I think the couplings are stiffer and more brittle, but with a flexible PVC, the coupling may not experience enough stress to break.

What I love about this solution is that by going vertical with the 90º allows you rotate them to get whatever angle you need.

Is that 1-1/2 or 2"?

It's pretty common to use flexible PVC underground on pool lines. That's what I would do.

Use the good glue, blue can.

So you took off the deck and restarted the pool?

Not an accident! I vetoed all concrete because I anticipated this happening in the future...

-Wayne

I think it's 1.25" - seems like it from the outside diameter.

I just refilled the pool, but I can't restart it with the connection disconnected? I can, I think, manually configure the valves so that water is drawn from the pool and then sent back through the hottub just to keep the filter running. I was going to look into that tonight...

-Wayne

I am wondering why it broke? I presume driving over it, push down on the upper pipe, putting pressure on the lower pipe, breaking it. By doing the repair below, you can get some separation between the two pipes.

Get a pair of PVC pipe cutters, primer, glue, (4) 90° and a straight section you can buy in 2 foot lengths. You spend more time going to Lowe’s then you will fixing it.

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In my case it was just ground movement due to drought. We had something similar occur in 3 different areas of the yard. Once it was a coupling between two pieces of straight pipe. I had walked over the area 1000 times (and cars and mowers had driven over it) in the past 2 years, but in Aug, I walked over the area. The first time was the 45 that is at the corner of the house. The third time was at the top of the well-head where the well comes up out of the ground and then there are 2 90s for it to go back down into the ground before it goes to the "pump house" where the expansion tank and pressure valve are.

I concour with Steve's suggestion, Wayne.

You need to bring both pipe ends straight up - and then reconnect them above those other pipes.

You should not need any flex pipe.

You should have enough "flex' already with standard PVC pipe. Especially if you bring the two ends up high enough.

I'm thinking a sawzall would be the easiest way to cut out the old 45. Make sure everything is dry before gluing. Get the fittings in all the way - the glue will act as a lubricant. Let the 90's/ells set up for at least 15-30 minutes before proceeding with the 2 vertical pipes. Once those are in - again - let it set up for a bit before the next step.

Then "dry fit" the next steps before gluing. One 90/ell on each pipe end 'facing' each other. Then measure and cut the top pipe. Then glue in one 90/ell, glue in the pipe. Test dry-fit with the other 90/ell. When satisfied finish the last fitting.

Hope this all makes sense.

Remember with this method you will no longer need a 45. Just pivot the top (2) 90's/ells so they face each other and you'll have it.

As far PVC thickness - I would go ahead with regular thin wall....but you could also use schedule 40 (thicker). That part is up to you.

Also - make sure when you backfill you are very careful to add little at a time and use your hose end with water running to wash/jet the backfill in as you work. This will help eliminate any air pockets.

Good luck! ;)

BTW...that repair quote of $950 is absurd.....

I wonder if this thing would work okay:

https://www.amazon.com/Fernco-QwikFlex-Flexible-Coupling-Connections/dp/B09LMNYPS2/ref=asc_df_B09LMNYPS2/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=563592098316&hvpos=&hvnetw= g&hvrand=3586340397325456716&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt =&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031046&hvt argid=pla-1600821013400&psc=1#customerReviews

-Wayne

Wayne, I have recently been chasing all types of PVC breaks in an irrigation system.

Steve's suggestion is the way to go. Minimum schedule 40 repairs, the thin wall will become brittle and crack along the pipe. To prevent that from happening, use either a sawzal or a multitool. PVC cutters could cause the pipe to split longitudinally.

One thing and it is important, trench bedding. The original install with pipes crossing as in your case was probably caused by the upper pipe pushing down on the lower. Pipes should NEVER rest on one another, ever. That said, bed the repair with sand. Sand will fill any shadows under the lower pipe and mitigate any flexing.

Good luck with the repair.

Negative, ghost rider!

Cut it out a foot or so back, make up a new connection and install them with either a glued coupling on one end and a Fernco on the other or a Fernco coupling on both ends. The nice thing about Fernco couplings is that they are rubber so flexible.

https://www.fernco.com/

Saw this after my reply. It will probably be ok. This is what Fernco has built a business around, solving these types of problems.

Wayne,
I take it that this is a pressure line? If so the fernco line and couplings will not work as they are for non-pressure repairs, see ASTM-D5926 as well as ASTM-C 1173. Also, any flexible coupling must not be allowed to flex to the point that it causes axial loads at the point of connection.

Steve's repair is what I have been using with great success, it is straightforward, cheap and repeatable.

It broke because the ground is moving quite a bit. When I say "quite a bit", I mean like 3-6 inches in different spots. Pressure has been put on the coupler here, and it broke in the weak spot.

The line is not a "pressure line" per se - every line that has liquid that is transported through it has some level of pressure? This is a return line to the pool, so it is attached to a pump and that flows to three inlets into the pool. Low pressure as there is no back force placed on the flow - if one of the pipes back to the pool gets clogged or plugged (not sure how that would ever happen), then the water would simply flow out of the other two ports.

The only issue I see with the 90-degree pipe setup is trading two connections for eight connections. In my history - the more connections one has, the more likely to have problems in the future (sometimes).

What we have now is : pipe-to-45-degree-bend-to-pipe. We'd be replacing it with pipe-90-pipe-90-pipe-90-pipe-90-pipe - quite a bit more opportunity to make a mistake or something like that.

Food for thought. I'm going to order the flex hose on Amazon - it'll be here tomorrow - so that I can take a look at it (I can always return it).

Thx

-Wayne

If only there was a book... 101 Home repairs for the DIYer.... Chapter 6, Pools and Spas.

Not all Fernco fittings are rated for burial.

I would recommend that you replace what you dug up (all the fittings and short pieces on both lines) with schedule 80 (grey) vs the schedule 40 in there now (while you are in there).

Queue next book from Wayne! 101 Ideas for your home! Wayne will now spend the next 3 years talking to experts, tagging along on various dispatches, researching products. And then we'll have a killer book! :D

Your dirt is a funny color! Or maybe it is that you have sandy looking soil.

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My recent rapair project.

Our yard is 100% clay. If you take out the organic material, you can throw a pot on a potting wheel or make bricks. So imagine trying to dig in potting clay when it is wet. Or if it dry, it is brick like.

Wise decision to use pavers and not let them concrete over the plumbing. Personally I would avoid as many 90 degree elbows as possible. Every elbow is a water flow restriction. The pump has to work harder to overcome the flow loss.

Those white couplings do strike me as very brittle. Fixing this problem with more of those might not be best. Indeed, if you expect the ground to keep moving then a less brittle/rigid line might also be less temporary. Since this is not a pressure line....instead just a gravity line, then I wonder if a flexible hose would work better. I also wonder if you will consider replacing the entire line, end to end. And finally, if you chose, you could use flexible hose and protect it with a larger rigid pipe section. At least in some areas. Schedule 80 or something. I think that stuff can be heated and bent as well. Good hose, of sufficient diameter and construction, might be spendy. But future failures would also be spendy. I tend to lean toward the more permanent solutions. Quality is expensive, but you cry only once.

I was told that the sort of repair that I suggested creates an area with increased flexibility.

Yes, the couplings (regardless of angle) are stiffer and brittle. I think the key is that if you have a single coupling, that coupling gets all of the stress. If you replace it with what I call a bridge, then the stress gets divided across the 4x90º. So each coupling then maxes (in ideal conditions) out at 25% of what a single coupling would see.

I would replace as much as possible with flex PVC. The ground under pavers is always going to move.

1 rubber repair 45 deg bend hose clamp both ends about $10 home depo
that will allow minor flexing without failing /leaking
worse case it pulls out and can be refit after big ground moves

cheap quick eazy two pipe cuts at bad fitting screw the clamps tight
sawsall with a metal fine blade do not shake like a wood big tooth blade will

Okay, this is all good advice. We can probably go on another 5 pages of threads, and all the suggestions will still be good. I've got the flexpipe coming from Amazon today (same day delivery - woohoo), and I'll post pics.

In the meantime, just to give more perspective - the two pipes are not close to each other - they are several inches apart. The pavers have *significant* movement - see photos. This is a problem with the house too, we're going to have to have pillars installed in the coming year - I've just been waiting for the housing market to cool down a bit so that prices on this (pricey) repair become a bit reasonable (hopefully).

See in particular the areas around where I'm working and the land movement. The soil is mostly clay, which is bad for movement, etc.

Ah, the joys of home ownership. And again, I just couldn't pay someone $950 to do this repair - it seems like a ripoff to me. And this is not a commercial property, so it's $950 *after* taxes (which means it's really a $1,900 or so cost).

-Wayne

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Thanks for the updates, Wayne.

Not sure who you got your quote from - but in these parts any reputable irrigation contractor could do the pipe work for you at an acceptable price. Then you just backfill. Or they could too.

Point being - by hiring them just to do the pipe work - you'd be past the technical part and the work would be done by a pro.

Here in my area you wouldn't pay more than $250. Probably be even less.

Of course, if I were there I do it for you for free! :)

I was an irrigation contractor here for many years, BTW. What you are doing is very simple stuff....

I also think going with the flex pipe is a mistake.

The method to go straight up first and then bridge across that was mentioned on the 1st page would make the most sense, IMHO.

If you try to get it re-plumbed with flex pipe way down in the hole it's going to be a big PITA....speaking from experience.....

Can you please explain? I don't understand? From this angle, it looks like I cut the PVC Flex pipe, slide it on, and then clamp it. Done in perhaps the same time it took to write this reply? Like a car radiator hose. Maybe I'm missing something here (probably).

Thx,

Wayne

Yep, clay sucks when moisture content changes a lot.

When I had the first break, the guy fixed it using the 4x90º bridge method (I'd already dug the hole) for <$200. My third break that was above ground, but I couldn't easily get to it due to work, I think they charged $350. They did use very different (brass) fittings. I fixed the middle break myself. It was a straight line so I used a compression coupling.

Yea, working at the end of arm extension, flat on your chest sucks, sticking your haed and shoulders down in the hose to get to the pipe is even worse.

Personally I agree, flex pipe is not the best "fix" but it will be a patch for now.

I put in my own lawn sprinkler system 24 years ago. For the most part it has been flawless. My wife keeps taking over hunks of the yard to install yet another flowerbed is the majority of my working on the system, except for a few head replacements and those are just super easy.

Not sure what your flex pipe is compared to what we use. When you say "clamp it" - that's not how we secure it here. We use PVC cement and PVC fittings...like couplers, ells, 45's, etc. The flex pipe is used just like PVC pipe except it flexes. But it doesn't flex "that much" so working in a tight area such as yours will be challenging, IMHO.

I think what he went with was this from Amazon Fernco Qwikflex

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If so, I wonder if it is rated for how much pressure Wayne will have going through that pipe.....that would be my concern.

Hey if it works - great.

Maybe there's not that much pressure......

THe flex PVC I'm talking about is just like ridged PVC but it's somewhat flexible. It's great for underground use, or on a vibrating pump. Here is a piece I put on our pool filter. It's about 18" long and the most you can reasonably bend that length is about 6". I use schedule 80 fittings because the have a deeper socket.
I would cut that old pipe back as far as I could get it to make bending the flex pipe easier, and glue it in with schedule 80 connectors. But you radiator hose might work OK. I guess you'll find out.



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When we built houses on basements, we used to loop the waterline going into the foundation for ground settlement. Perhaps Wayne could do the same if he’s going to use a flex hose?

I got the black Flex piece from Amazon today - it's not useful - it kinks at the slightest bend (like 5 degrees). Going back to Amazon!

Gosh, I'm thinking that I might be overthinking this. I mean some silicone hose like this one should last forever, right?

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Reinforced-Performance-Diameter-Silicone/dp/B085XXB27M/ref=sr_1_3?crid=I5TCF4FV14Y&keywords=45+degree+Rad iator+Hose+1.25%22&qid=1667952780&sprefix=45+degre e+radiator+hose+1.25+%2Caps%2C170&sr=8-3

-Wayne

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Yes, overthinking it.

Flex schedule 40 pvc over the counter at plumbing supply, pool and big-box stores. 2 couplings, cleaner and glue - done before lunch tomorrow.

The flexible pvc lines (buried) from my pool built in 2002 still good.