Deep freeze. Pipe question

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

Mike, I’m not worried about any pipes on the inside of the house, but my house has a crawl space with all the plumbing underneath the house.. worst case for this type of event! My house is warm and im hoping as long as people are being active inside, ( using water, etc) that I’ll be ok. Running a faucet only helps that one section, not going to help the far away corners.

Hopefully you fared ok. We left every faucet and showers dripping (hot and cold where possible) and have had no problems so far. Got down to 7 degrees yesterday morning. Apparently just keeping the water moving will reduce the risk of freezing. Going down to about 18 tonight in Atl then we should be in the clear.

[rfuerst911sc]

My mother in law lives in an assisted living facility in town . It was built maybe 5-6 years ago . All plumbing runs in the attic space . Yesterday the pipes froze then burst ☹️ . Fortunately the staff were able to shut water off quickly so minimal damage.

They were able to get a plumber there quickly and make repairs so they had water this morning . I can't imagine the rate for an emergency call on Christmas Eve 🙄

[NY65912]

My main comes up in a part of my attached garage and used to freeze the lines going in to the house through a soffit that was like a wind tunnel. The lines would freeze when the temp went down to 15. I heat traced all the lines in the garage and insulated them as well. Haven't had a problem since. Neighbors are not so lucky.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

It can.

Does it vs Can it. Does it, all or most of the time? No. Can it under the right circumstances? Maybe.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

It can.

It's not just ambient conditions.

Hot water is different than cold water.

https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html#:~:text=detailed%20explanations%20R eferences-,Yes%20—%20a%20general%20explanation,it%20is%20in% 20fact%20real.

We are talking about water in pipes, so no.

And hot water lines become cold water lines if you don’t run the hot water out one end.

[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by javadog

We are talking about water in pipes, so no.



And hot water lines become cold water lines if you don’t run the hot water out one end.

Yep, this is why my sister has issues with her hot water lines freezing, she didn't use the hot water enough or at all for a day. I don't know how, but that is what she told me.
Checked with her today and she said the only issue she was having today was that the toilet in her master bath wasn't filling up again just like yesterday morning but that all faucets in her house were working as they should. Her master bath toilet is on a corner outside wall so I'm guessing that it just gets colder on that side of the house.

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[NY65912]

46 years being in the plumbing business and hot water lines freeze first. Less oxygen dissolved in hot water. Hot water sounds different than cold water when it exists your faucet and hits the sink.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by HobieMarty

Yep, this is why my sister has issues with her hot water lines freezing, she didn't use the hot water enough or at all for a day. I don't know how, but that is what she told me.
Checked with her today and she said the only issue she was having today was that the toilet in her master bath wasn't filling up again just like yesterday morning but that all faucets in her house were working as they should. Her master bath toilet is on a corner outside wall so I'm guessing that it just gets colder on that side of the house.

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People often will crack the hot and cold lines and let them drip but few people think about flushing the toilet occasionally to keep those lines unfrozen.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

We are talking about water in pipes, so no.

And hot water lines become cold water lines if you don’t run the hot water out one end.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Does it vs Can it. Does it, all or most of the time? No. Can it under the right circumstances? Maybe.

Why not water in pipes? In order to say that definitively then you have to know for certain the conditions required for it to happen, or not. What is observed and acknowledged is that it can happen because it does happen.

Maybe it does it most of the time in pipes? Maybe those are the right circumstances?

Seems to be a consistent observation from someone who has first hand knowledge through years of witnessing it happening.

Originally Posted by NY65912

46 years being in the plumbing business and hot water lines freeze first. Less oxygen dissolved in hot water. Hot water sounds different than cold water when it exists your faucet and hits the sink.

[javadog]

To answer your question, look into the research that has been done on that and take note of the factors that they consider that cannot happen in a pipe. For example, evaporation.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

To answer your question, look into the research that has been done on that and take note of the factors that they consider that cannot happen in a pipe. For example, evaporation.

Evaporation 100% happens in a pipe.

That’s just a fact.

What makes you think it doesn’t?

Because if you have water in a sealed jar the volume doesn’t seem to change?

Evaporation (and hint, condensation) is still happening.

[javadog]

There should be no free air space in a pipe under pressure, as there would be in a typical jar.

Think about it.

[mattdavis11]

Authoritarian physics, goodness gracious. Physicist simply do not understand out of equilibrium systems, so they cannot rationalize how it happens, therefore it doesn't.

The hot water line in my garage freezes faster than the cold, and there isn't anything special about my garage.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

There should be no free air space in a pipe under pressure, as there would be in a typical jar.

Think about it.

Hot water has more volume than cold water.

When hot water cools it occupies less space.

When you think about it, our grandmothers took advantage of that basic principle to put up their preserves.

[Arizona_928]

*Caveat *

[javadog]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Hot water has more volume than cold water.

When hot water cools it occupies less space.

When you think about it, our grandmothers took advantage of that basic principle to put up their preserves.

Again, you are confusing two separate issues.

The pipe effectively has one open end, with water being pushed into it under pressure. Your hypothetical loss of volume won’t happen, because there’s an endless supply of water behind that volume which cools, to replace it.

If your granny canned things like mine did, that’s an entirely different set of facts.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

Again, you are confusing two separate issues.

The pipe effectively has one open end, with water being pushed into it under pressure. Your hypothetical loss of volume won’t happen, because there’s an endless supply of water behind that volume which cools, to replace it.

If your granny canned things like mine did, that’s an entirely different set of facts.

I’ve never seen a plumbing system that consisted solely of a straight pipe with the open end pointed up.

By your logic we’d never have to bleed our brake systems because all the air would escape on its own.

Why doesn’t it?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I’ve never seen a plumbing system that consisted solely of a straight pipe with the open end pointed up.

By your logic we’d never have to bleed our brake systems because all the air would escape on its own.

Why doesn’t it?

You’re not understanding this at all.

You have a pipe supplying water to something in your house. At one end is the valve, faucet, whatever it’s in your sink, toilet, shower, wherever the pipe ends up.

What’s at the other end?

If you think about it for half a minute at the other end is a pump or water tower, miles and miles away. There are no closed valves between your pipe and whatever pushes the water at the other end. I’m oversimplifying things but i’m doing so, so that you understand.

If the water at your end of the pipe contracts because it cools, that volume is immediately filled by more water being pushed into the pipe from the city supply end.

In your granny’s jar you will note that she left a little head space above the liquid level for air. After the contents of the jar were heated, she screwed the lid shut and has the air and contents of the jar cooled, it creates a partial vacuum in the air pocket. The jar was a closed system, there was nothing more coming into the jar.

And, just for the plumbers, we’re ignoring that modern house is may have water hammer arrestors that older houses don’t, etc.