Watch me flail with kitchen changes

[zakthor]

Spouse keeps having these people over that are allegedly 'kitchen designers' but they don't seem to have much of a brain, or maybe just not equipped to deal with a weird 'kustom kitchen.'

Our problem isn't 'cabinets' (expensive boxes with doors on them that someone else 'installs'. Our problem is access, the spaces we need to access are 'house shaped', 38" deep.

Yesterday we went out to look at kitchen hardware: sliders, kitchen storage mechanisms?... the stuff that you make kitchens out of. Idea is to get a vocabulary so we can think a bit for ourselves.

First store pointed us to second store which pointed us to third store...

Third store indeed had a 'hardware' section. They had tens of fancy hinges. Hinges that I personally would have expected to see on display in the Met, or maybe in the reception chamber of the grand poo-bah. Mirror chromed things and some rode on ball bearings. I can't for the life of me imagine needing such a thing. I've literally never seen such a fancy hinge in my life BUT:

The giant panels that held their 'hardware' were these big slidey things. 'Barn doors' with ball bearing rollers on a solid rack. Solid.

We both got really excited because sideways sliding doors is the perfect thing for our situation, we'd just never thought of it. We got the contact info of the guy that built the store's display racks. This sideways panel technology is referred to as 'barn doors'.

Later, looking in the sink department we again found these awesome pull out sink displays with heavy duty sliders. Damn nice stuff, solid and extended quite far. Those would be just the things to hold the heavy trays of appliances that are stored back in our cabinets. And again it was built by the same guy that built the other displays.

This sort of feels like we're on the right track now. We've at least found a guy that can think and build good stuff.

WRT sinks: I thought good sinks were made from ceramic coated steel but the store had none. Quartz in epoxy, solid high fired porcelain, stainless, but no more enameled steel? Wonder why?

PS: Store also had some outdoor bbq units from 'Kalamazoo'. Lady said they started at 12k but they had a fancy big painted one that I think she said was 40k. The painted panels were in a gnarly ochre. I thought it was gorgeous. Made from 1/4" plate stainless that has been decorated with patterns cut with a waterjet. Stunning materials and finish. Mind blown. Worth a trip just to see such an item. Can imagine a pop artist might make a hideous disney/marvel/barbie version as the ultimate rip on trashy decadence. Trying to think who the customer would be as this is genuine plutocrat bbq. Chromed gold version for sadam? Kim Jong Un? The lid had a cammed hinge that moved the center of balance as lid was lifted so it needed almost no force to move but from its inertia I bet it weighed 100#.

[masraum]

enameled steel sinks aren't a thing these days. If you want a good heavy sink, then either "vitreous clay china" or closer to what you're thinking about enameled cast iron.

Yes, there are sliders out there that will support a lot of weight.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by masraum

enameled steel sinks aren't a thing these days. If you want a good heavy sink, then either "vitreous clay china" or closer to what you're thinking about enameled cast iron.

Yes, there are sliders out there that will support a lot of weight.

Oh I misspoke about steel, I meant enameled cast iron. They had none in this fancy store - which I thought was strange.

Why would someone want vitrious china instead of coated cast iron? Isn't it the same surface but without the cast iron goodness underneath?

[look 171]

What are you looking for? Slides or kitchen redo?

Blum for slides and hinges if you want undermount, soft/self closing

Accuride for side mount and go form there. Chose your lbs rating. 75-100 per side is plenty.

That's all we use in our cabinet shop. What are you having trouble with? We use to design and build lot of them.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by look 171

What are you looking for? Slides or kitchen redo?

Blum for slides and hinges if you want undermount, soft/self closing

Accuride for side mount and go form there. Chose your lbs rating. 75-100 per side is plenty.

That's all we use in our cabinet shop. What are you having trouble with? We use to design and build lot of them.

Yes, the good sliders were accuride.

The problem is the counter encloses a lower bathroom, hall and closet so its proportions are fixed. Tons of storage above.

We think This access is the main problem in the kitchen. Especially that doors get in way when using that counter.

Spouse is short, wed like sliders that came out further. And 100# isnt enough.

Wood matches everything else so ideally we could adapt current door panels?

[look 171]

What you have there are simple 1980s epoxy 3/4 extension slides rated at about 40 lbs? They were really popular back then. There's a 1/2" space between the exterior of the drawer and the cabinet side or cleat like you have there. As long as the the opening up front and back is perfectly square, then any side mount Accurate slide will fit perfectly as long as the gap required by Accuride is 1/2" They make an over extension slide also, but looking what you have there, full extension will help your wife.

Accuride 3834 is what you will need. They have a 1" over travel and we install lots of them over the years. rated at 90 lbs. You must get their screw, 1/2 pan head. Anything else, it will rub and catch then she will kick you azz out in the cold. Don't skimp on the 'lil screws. Put about 4-5 of them on there especially the ones on the front edge that goes into the cabinet side.

Let me know if you want to go fancy and use Blum but I need more details on the width to make it work. Learn how to cuss now, you will need it due to the confine space you must work in.

[look 171]

No need to touch the doors. 90 lbs is plenty. I show off our drawer to clients at times by standing in the lower cabinet drawers and sit in the uppers during installation. But then I was only 155 lbs then. At 165 now, my fat ass will fall right through and get fired from the job.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by look 171

What you have there are simple 1980s epoxy 3/4 extension slides rated at about 40 lbs? They were really popular back then. There's a 1/2" space between the exterior of the drawer and the cabinet side or cleat like you have there. As long as the the opening up front and back is perfectly square, then any side mount Accurate slide will fit perfectly as long as the gap required by Accuride is 1/2" They make an over extension slide also, but looking what you have there, full extension will help your wife.

Accuride 3834 is what you will need. They have a 1" over travel and we install lots of them over the years. rated at 90 lbs. You must get their screw, 1/2 pan head. Anything else, it will rub and catch then she will kick you azz out in the cold. Don't skimp on the 'lil screws. Put about 4-5 of them on there especially the ones on the front edge that goes into the cabinet side.

Let me know if you want to go fancy and use Blum but I need more details on the width to make it work. Learn how to cuss now, you will need it due to the confine space you must work in.

What do you mean ‘full’ and ‘over extension’? Ideally there’d be an extra long extension so tray can reach out really far (to the floor)? Thinking of widening that counter when we replace it.

The doors are a huge problem. We use those counters a lot but can’t open doors once counter is covered in stuff. Plus this is maybe our 4th set of hinges. Lifetime warranty but only last 4 or 5 years.

Is there a generic barn door slider system? We think we’d like to convert doors to side sliders. ?

[look 171]

Full extension means the slides allow the drawer to come out fully, or the length of the slides. If the slide is 22", the drawer comes out of the from the edge of the cabinet 22" in the case of the 3834, the drawer comes out 23".

I don't understand "to the floor"?

Are you replacing the entire kitchen of just that area? Upper cabinets should never sit on the counter. The standard height is 18" between counter and the lower edge of uppers. This way, there's no interference issues like you have now. What type of hinges are you using and what typr of problem are you having with them? Normally hinges do not wear out. The only reason they wear is because they bind and aren't installed correctly. Upon opening doors, the force on a binding hinge eventually wear out the moving parts. Those hinges can be adjusted 6 ways. Most hinges break is because they aren't adjusted correctly.

Bran door tracks are fine but a bottom track is often needed unless a small guide is installed and a dado (a channel) is cut on the bottom of every door.

that's a strange area to have a counter there with cabinets recessed into the wall. What's behind it? What's up above in the soffit? Personally, I would make the soffit go away, run cabinets all the way up to the ceiling and have the standard cavity between counter and bottom of upper cabinets.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by look 171

Full extension means the slides allow the drawer to come out fully, or the length of the slides. If the slide is 22", the drawer comes out of the from the edge of the cabinet 22" in the case of the 3834, the drawer comes out 23".

I don't understand "to the floor"?

Are you replacing the entire kitchen of just that area? Upper cabinets should never sit on the counter. The standard height is 18" between counter and the lower edge of uppers. This way, there's no interference issues like you have now. What type of hinges are you using and what typr of problem are you having with them? Normally hinges do not wear out. The only reason they wear is because they bind and aren't installed correctly. Upon opening doors, the force on a binding hinge eventually wear out the moving parts. Those hinges can be adjusted 6 ways. Most hinges break is because they aren't adjusted correctly.

Bran door tracks are fine but a bottom track is often needed unless a small guide is installed and a dado (a channel) is cut on the bottom of every door.

that's a strange area to have a counter there with cabinets recessed into the wall. What's behind it? What's up above in the soffit? Personally, I would make the soffit go away, run cabinets all the way up to the ceiling and have the standard cavity between counter and bottom of upper cabinets.

‘To the floor’ : we’d like to have the slidey tray next to us as we stand by the counter.

Current trays are only 27” deep. Counter is 24”. Is there a slider that goes more than its length? We wouldnt be sad if a slider could extend a 32” tray by 50”.

Its pretty convenient to have the bottom trays at counter level. The bottom doors are 18” tall. Rising 18” means giving up the entire bottom level which is where all the heavy stuff is stored. Lady friend doesnt want to store mixer at her chin height. Is sick of climbing on counter to access upper storage.

Hinges: the thing that breaks is a piece of black plastic inside thats supposed to hold the door closed. I thought it broke because the doors are too heavy and the plastic fatigues.

Soffet: agree it makes it difficult to access top shelf. Theres some 6” metal ducting up there for oven vent. I think primary issue is access to the low storage.

Strangest thing about this situation is that area beneath counter is very spoken for. We get lots of storage above and a big spare counter, but its strange that under cant be used.

Behind is house entry way. Above are bedrooms.

Entire kitchen replace: probably not. We would need a reason. I wouldnt mind better sliders everywhere because what we have sucks.

[Zeke]

Never seen kitchen doors open over a counter. Slide up, yes.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by zakthor

‘To the floor’ : we’d like to have the slidey tray next to us as we stand by the counter.

If that's what you want, then you will have to deal with counter items getting in the way of the doors

Current trays are only 27” deep. Counter is 24”. Is there a slider that goes more than its length? We wouldnt be sad if a slider could extend a 32” tray by 50”.
How deep are those upper cabinets behind those doors? Accurate makes slides in increments of two inches in even numbers. Make new drawer for more storage or that will allow you to pull them out further.


Its pretty convenient to have the bottom trays at counter level. The bottom doors are 18” tall. Rising 18” means giving up the entire bottom level which is where all the heavy stuff is stored. Lady friend doesnt want to store mixer at her chin height. Is sick of climbing on counter to access upper storage.

Goes under the lower cabinets right the top drawer. Rev-A-shelf mixer lift. All other heavy items should go under there on roll outs or large deep drawers. I am not usre how much counter space you have there, but its nice to not have to move items on the counter just to get at something behind those doors

Hinges: the thing that breaks is a piece of black plastic inside thats supposed to hold the door closed. I thought it broke because the doors are too heavy and the plastic fatigues.

Blum hinges is all I have for you.

Soffet: agree it makes it difficult to access top shelf. Theres some 6” metal ducting up there for oven vent. I think primary issue is access to the low storage.

Strangest thing about this situation is that area beneath counter is very spoken for. We get lots of storage above and a big spare counter, but its strange that under cant be used.

Behind is house entry way. Above are bedrooms.

Entire kitchen replace: probably not. We would need a reason. I wouldnt mind better sliders everywhere because what we have sucks.

Something has to give so those counter space can be freed up.

[zakthor]

The counter is 24”, the cabinets are 33” deep.

Im resigned to having storage and counter that dont play well together, i just dont see a middle ground. We want both.

Yeah i was thinking id like to make nice full depth trays. New trays i can use a wide slider if its better.

I think it would work well to convert these door panels to sideways sliding doors. Id like a cover - I dont want to look at flour bins.

Im meeting the guy that made the roller display panels at the fancy kitchen store. See what he says.

[LWJ]

I have a super cool "kidney" pull out for the corner. Something my very German cabinet maker knew about 15 years ago. If your corner needs storage, let me know and I will get the name of it.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by LWJ

I have a super cool "kidney" pull out for the corner. Something my very German cabinet maker knew about 15 years ago. If your corner needs storage, let me know and I will get the name of it.

Oh that far back corner. The end cabinet is cooking trays. But the corner itself… It’s so huge back there. IF it’s not empty it holds heirloom cake pans or some other stuff we’ll never use. No idea how to access that. Send me a picture We need ideas.

[look 171]

Kessebohmer Magic Corner One is what we used over the years. Not cheap but worth the money IMO.

The thing to watch out for is the opening size on the barn doors. Clearance is a must for the drawer to slide open. I think the existing doors can be used. You doing this yourself?

[davidrivers]

Roller shutter doors?

[look 171]

Hafele Sildo line will work for you. Don't install an exterior track. Hefele is a German hardware company. If your fancy kitchen guy don't have anything, check them out. It takes a bit to get them installed, takes a bit of experience but not too difficult.

[jyl]

Can you convert the lower doors (the ones that sweep the counter) to top hinging? Either swing up to open, or swing up and push in (recess).

To help reach the pullout shelves behind the upper doors, maybe a foot ledge or foot bar mounted to the knee wall under the counter, about 12” high? Depends how limber you/she are, I guess. If not, then a step stool that is light, folds thin, and stashes away somewhere discreet but easily accessible. Then slides that let the shelves pull way the heck out.

If the very top shelf were also pullout, and you had a step stool - or the foot ledge/bar thing mentioned above - then it seems stuff would be more reachable. It’d still be a place for stuff that isn’t retrieved very frequently.

I assume there is something behind that wall and under the counter, that prevents putting cabinets under the counter.

[MFAFF]

https://www.salice.com/ww/en/products/lift-systems-and-flap-doors/flap-door-systems/mover-flat-downward-sliding-system




Have used these vertical sliding mechs before... in a kitchen. Not the one in the picture however it was similar, vertical sliding white glass panels.

Decent quality and the visible parts of the slider rails were well finished.