Tribalism

[Tobra]

I got to thinking about yesterday talking to someone about the upcoming "Big Game" and they said something about Philadelphia fans fighting, they apparently have a police station at the stadium. Named "Philadelphia" and they are fighting with each other, ironic, but I guess brothers fight, I did with mine, once or twice.

I said something about lucky it is Kansas City instead of Oakland, or for sure there is a fight. I know, it is Las Vegas now, but to me it is Oakland Raiders, even when they were in LA. We both laughed, and I thought about a time when I went to a Giants game about 30 years ago. This was pre-Barry, super cheap bleacher seats, implausibly blue sky, grilling food in the parking lot before a day game. Rich brought his 5 year old kid, who liked the hot dog more than the grilled chicken, go figure. Rich was from Southern California, tall, long legs, D1 NCAA 800 M nationals, could run all day playing basketball. Naturally he was skinny, his kid had the little Dodgers jacket and hat, like from a McDonalds commercial. I had this radio sitting on the seat in front me, and they were two rows ahead of me and a few other guys. They went to the bathroom, and when they came back, these two guys followed them back to their seats and were pitching them grief about the Dodgers gear. The sit in front of Gary, who was a Clint Walker looking dude, 6'5" and thick. His summer job was forest firefighter. These guys are not leaving Rich and his kid alone, Gary leans forward and puts a hand on each guy's shoulder, gives them his death grip thing that he did if someone got out of line, tells them to apologize while one of us goes and gets the cop to walk them out.

What would make someone think it would be okay to be hassling a guy and his kid at a baseball game like that? It goes way beyond that of course, to the point of people being killed in altercations, but what sort of person fights over "their" team? I guess that is the most important thing in their life, which I can't imagine. Maybe it is simpler, just that some people are violent and like to fight. I think public decorum has probably gotten worse, symptom of the decay of western society I suppose.

I hope we can turn it around

[craigster59]

I used to work with Matt Cassel's Mom who was/is a set decorator for film and TV. She had 3 boys Matt who played for the Patriots, Chiefs and the Vikings. The 2 other boys, one played for the Astros and the other the White Sox. All talented athletes.

She would travel to see Matt play and sit in the "Wives and Moms" section. I asked her about the different cities and their fans, who was the worst. I figured it would be Raiders but she said they were the most "rabid" but generally good natured razzing was about all that would happen.

She said hands down it was S.D. Charger fans who were the worst. Threats of violence, crude remarks to the Moms and Wives, they would refuse to let anyone wearing an opponents jersey use the restrooms, etc. Just really off the rails.

[Superman]

Right now, in America, the topic of tribalism can best be expressed with this image:

[Sooner or later]

In 1968 Eagles fans booed and threw snowballs at Santa Claus.

[masraum]

I don't get it, but then I've never been a member of a tribe. I'm not the type to join tribes. I try to avoid tribes. I probably wouldn't have made it as a caveman.

When I was younger, my groups of friends were usually very small, and most of them usually other than 2-3 were fairly casual. Now that I'm older, not much has changed. The closest that I've got to a tribe is probably this place.

[oldE]

The players on the other hand, tend to respect their opponents. Maybe because a) they might be playing alongside them next year and b) it's a game.

You know when I read the title to this thread, I thought it was going to be about politics.

What's the answer?

Best
Les

[Superman]

Originally Posted by oldE

....You know when I read the title to this thread, I thought it was going to be about politics. ....

I do think this is the "elephant in the corner" but I will contribute as though it is not:

Here in Washington State we have the "Apple Cup." The annual game between the University of Washington Huskies and the Washington State University Cougars. The cats and the dogs. The campuses are located at opposite ends of the state. This game as a 123-year history. Alumni from both teams are highly active and engaged in this rivalry every time. It is a 'big deal.'

And the rivalry could not be more collegiate and respectful. These teams love each other, and fight against each other, like brothers. Then go to the pub afterwards.

[oldE]

I liked the story I heard the other day about a fan of one of the bowl contenders ( sorry, I have no idea of the teams involved) needed a kidney. The guy who donated the kidney was a fan of the other team.
Full disclosure: they were both ex marines, so they had that in common.
I guess the take away for me is we have more in common than we think about.
Letting our differences define us is a zero sum.

Best
Les

[island911]

nah, supe. You seem to have a UW perspective. (relatively chill) But the WSU perspective...

I went to both schools (engineering) and saw quickly the relative investments the two sides had in the tribe identity.

At WSU, there were a couple students that liked to play mental games with me (and others) just before a big exam. I gave it back to them on the next exam by sitting in front of them, and as the tests were being passed out, I took off my jacket exposing my UW formula SAE T-shirt. ... ah, the glorious angry whimpering...

I expect that if I wore WSU garb at the UW no one would care.

Perhaps that has changed by now.

[island911]

This topic is interesting... What makes some SO devoted to the collective identity?

Individualism vs Borg mentality, I suppose. The weak find strength in numbers/association, and really cannot play well on an individual level.

[oldE]

Originally Posted by island911

This topic is interesting... What makes some SO devoted to the collective identity?

Individualism vs Borg mentality, I suppose. The weak find strength in numbers/association, and really cannot play well on an individual level.

I suspect you have hit the nail squarely on the head. How do we get around that?
The worst evolution of group action is mob mentality, where as mentioned above you find people blocking others from bathrooms, or buildings. I can't imagine an individual trying to pull that stunt. A mob on the other hand...


Best
Les

[911boost]

I have seen Philly fans do terrible things, including pick up horse apples and throw them at a 12yo kid wearing a Redskins hat (me). Needless to say I will not be pulling for them today.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by island911

...This topic is interesting...

It should interest you, I think.

Originally Posted by island911

The weak find strength in numbers/association, and really cannot play well on an individual level.

And....here we go.

[mjohnson]

Even in Denver's bad-elway-years and the good-elway-years it was pretty moderate while I was up there for school. Multi-generation "orange-crush" fans and just a normal tempo of (usually bad) seasons. People had some "ownership" but it wasn't that extreme - besides their not-love of the Raiders.

What really got me was after the Avalanche came in, winning - for two years it was "WE win! WE'RE AWESOME!!" The next year it was "...those losers lost... they suck..." Just a few half millions of homers there.

Peacefully here in NM we got nothing. There's some strange Raider-love for who knows why and oddly some for the Chiefs as well. Coboys too, obviously.

I'll stick with the Isotopes and then go for a walk in my blissful ignorance of the stickball-sporty stuff (until next year's UoM Harghball game - let's be reasonable here...)

[McLovin]

It is an interesting topic.
One thing that I’ve noticed over the years is Porsche guys, and car guys in general, aren’t overly into watching sports. Definitely less than the general population.
PPOT is a good example. Very little sports discussion or interest.
For myself, I’ve never really been into sports, I’ve tried to figure out why. I’ve played sports, and I certainly can appreciate world class athletes competing at the highest levels.
But, ultimately I just don’t care who wins any given game. There’s nothing in me that can make myself have any vested or emotional interest in the outcome. Without that, watching becomes kind of pointless, or a lot less interesting.
I think a lot of us here are the same way.
Which makes the behavior described by the OP truly bizarre and hard to understand.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by island911

This topic is interesting... What makes some SO devoted to the collective identity?

Individualism vs Borg mentality, I suppose. The weak find strength in numbers/association, and really cannot play well on an individual level.

Most people want to fit in and belong to a group which leads to conforming and peer pressure. In many ways, it may be a good thing if the group has "good" values, and members of the group are driven to reflect those values. Are the members of the groups weak? I don't know. They just have the drive (most folks seem to) to fit in and belong. In times past that drive probably lead to safety and a guaranty of certain levels of "prosperity" (food, shelter, etc...). It's not my bag.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Superman

And....here we go.

Where?

Originally Posted by McLovin

But, ultimately I just don’t care who wins any given game. There’s nothing in me that can make myself have any vested or emotional interest in the outcome.

I am in the same state of mind...I still would prefer the 49'er's and Giants do well, but that is about it. I record everything I think I want to watch and then FF to the good parts.

Basketball is unwatchable, so is baseball so I don't even record those events...

Originally Posted by McLovin

Which makes the behavior described by the OP truly bizarre and hard to understand.

You have to see it to believe it. I'll never attend a professional football game in person again.

[GH85Carrera]

One of my long time friends is a major OU football fan, and went to most every game at home and away. He traveled to many cities and different stadiums and met a lot of great rival fans, and a few just a few total jerks.

His comments was the Nebraska fans are almost the most polite, and welcoming fans of all. At most places the rival fans all were polite. He made life long friends with one Texas fan and they exchanged birthday cards for many decades.

He said every sports franchise will have a few total jerks that are an embarrassment to the normal fans. Many people seem to lose their minds when "their" team is playing an long time rival.

I think it is just silly to care about watching someone else play a game with a ball, a deck of cards, or checkers.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Where?

Some folks think working cooperatively is the best approach. These people have a political party and they believe in government. A different group prefers competition and despises government. They have a political party as well.

Island predictably suggests the folks who band together are weak and cannot compete.

But....I guess this is not "politics." Not for me to say. But predictable nonetheless.

[Danimal16]

We used to attend 49ers games on my Dad's birthday at Candlestick. Being a SoCal kid and a Packer fan from infancy things were always fun. BUT, what I remember was my first 49er game. I had a grime prejudice about what that experience would be like. Well it started in the parking lot with the locals selling things to those of us in the tailgating phase. The local folks were just great, I mean I was kinda blown away at how much fun we had, together. (Kinda knocked the preconceived notion about that park and Niners fans I previously had). But it got better. Old Candlestick was a real treasure, old, cold, windy and uncomfortable. The one thing that absolutely and very emotionally changed me forever about Niner fans and Candlestick was during the National Anthem. The crowd rose to their feet, took off their hats (noticeably), many had their hands over their hearts and you could have friggin' heard a pin drop. For over a decade and a half we experienced that, every time without fault. It was a huge time of togetherness. When the Packers showed up, we wore both team colors (the half and half Niner/Packer tee shirts), everyone love those shirts!!

I miss the Stick!