Difficult discussions about Owen Walter
 

My wife and I are having tough conversations about Our dog Owen Walter.

Owen escaped the house again last night. We were out in the wind and rain with our flashlights, there were severe thunderstorm warnings out, and Owen was on the road running to nowhere, as usual. He is becoming more that we want to handle. Owen is as cute as can be to look at, but he is a pain in the ass to live with. He has a long list of behavior issues that we are simply tired of having to work around.

We knew he had behavior problems from an early age. At his first visit with the veterinarian, the vet observed his demeanor and told us never to play keep-away games with him or anything that was a competition between us. We’ve done our best, but he can still be aggressive, he will bite at you if you pick him up when he doesn’t want to be handled.
We suspect that he was taken from his mother prematurely because he has never acted like a normal dog. He never learned how to drink water like other dogs do.

I lost my dog Madison in July and I am struggling with the thought that some of my feelings about Owen might just be due to the simple fact that he isn’t Madison. My heart is so broken. God I miss her.
They are exact opposites. Maddie was loving and lovable and Owen is distant and hard-edged. After Maddie’s death I spent a couple of months spending time with Owen and training him but it was so difficult I gave up. He is simply no fun to be around.

At 8 years old he is in early middle age for a dog his size. He could outlive both of us. We are thinking of finding a new home for him, but rehoming a problem dog isn’t fair to the new family. The alternative is unthinkable, but so is living with him for the rest of our lives.

First Maddie and now this. These are very tough conversations with a lot of tears.


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Dang it, Patrick, I can't say how much I feel for you on this one. My wife and I went through this darn near 30 years ago with a dog we rescued from the local pound. Skip was his name, supposedly a Lab/Chessie mix. Hard to tell when he was little, but it became abundantly clear he was anything but as he matured. Probably a Lab/Greyhound. As skittish, unfriendly, hyper, untrainable as they come. And escape prone, which was very difficult with our then three and six year old boys.

It took us several weeks of some very serious, heart wrenching discussions, but we finally decided he had to go. Our situation was different than yours, of course, that early in our marriage, with little kids. Skip just couldn't be the dog they grew up with. So we brought him back to the pound from whence we rescued him.

We never felt so terrible in our lives. But, in the end, they are our lives. Dogs have to fit into them. For us, the clock was ticking regarding our kids. For you and your wife, you are on a different clock at this point in your lives. The dog has to add to it, not detract from it. They have some "responsibility" as well, regardless of the fact that they cannot understand any of this.

Best of luck to you.

Call me cold hearted if you like but with my heart attack I've readjusted my thinking on some things. Life is too short for me to ever put up with a difficult dog. I feel for you loosing Maddie. I've never had a dog I'd say was mine alone. The one I identify most with was actually my sister's dog, Toby. She left him with my folks when she went off to school. They moved onto a private vineyard and he had the run of the place. The joy he must have felt getting out of the city and moving to the country with a pond and all must have been unbelievable to him. He was a black lab. They truly belong out in the country, where they can chase rabbits or go swimming whenever they want. I don't think I could ever find a dog that could live up to his reputation. I wouldn't be able to keep a dog like that here in the city. I'd consider it cruel.
As for Owen, move him on, one way or the other. You have too much to offer a dog to put up with a problem one. And no one is guaranteed tomorrow either.

Get Owen a invisable fence and maybe a 'companion' dog/pet he needs some need in his life

My niece is a dog trainer and says she has fixed just about all dog problems. For a start she puts the dog amongst her pack. The dog very quickly finds out he's not the boss. Or the biggest (that one over there is), or the smartest, or the naughtiest, or the cutest.

aggressive dogs get a mauling, dominant ones get told "No you are bottom of the pack."

And it all works out well, so don't give up.

I fixed minor problems with my dogs with an electric collar. Cruel I know but it made him into a great happy dog.

Talk to your Vet about CBD, NOT NOT NOT THC!

We took in a cat that was in his early teens and lived in a few different homes and circumstances with only one thing in common, his owner. Divorce, job changes, moves from Chicago to Seattle to L.A. Many days he was left locked in an apt with food and water. At night he didn't get a lot of attention.

Finally the owner moved to Long Beach and the apt he rented (hard to find apts) said no to pets.
I said yes right away, my wife was on the fence as we had lost a great cat at only 8 years old not that long before and it was as Patrick described.

Anyway, this old guy was pretty nasty for the first year. He nailed my wife with his claws many times. She just didn't know his boundaries. I can make friends with cats that are feral or in any kind of situation. 4 years in and my wife wouldn't let this old guy go no matter what. He changed much for the better.

I stay a bit distant even though I can get into their world. I have described to many people the 15 second rule. Call a dog and it comes. Ask anything of a cat and you won't know dick until 15 seconds have passed. And then the cat might just do whatever it wants and not what you want.

Since we have coyotes, it's a must that the cat be monitored when outside and in the house at sunset and not out for a bit in the morning. So the 'cat cookie treat' is an important tool.

I also don't know about CBD but we do have calming pills. Sometimes they need to be shut down some.

IDK what you're gonna do about Owen in the long run, but if you called me "Owen Walter" I'd bite you. :D

I can't help you WD, but I can feel for you. I really do. It sounds like the dog needs to go away. But it is your call whether to do that, and how.

Here is a non-unrelated thing that has only to do with me and not you or your dog: I am ready to check out. Not on purpose. I really like my life. But it has been a free gift and a great gift, and I'm happy to have had it. I am grateful. And at 65 years old, it is just a matter of time. I have had more life than many. I could put a dog down and feel comfortable. Particularly if he was mine and I had treated him well. Maybe that's cold, but it doesn't seem cold to me.

Awful situation, I'm sorry you're faced with this.

I guess I might bring in a professional dog trainer for one all-out attempt. If that doesn't work - that's a personal and very difficult decision. I know what'd I'd do.

It’s a commitment.

I’ll say no more.

Looks from the picture that he has a pretty significant cataract. If he is loosing his vision, it would probably affect his behavior.

Charles

Great suggestion! A coworker of mine just started using this on his dog with incredible results. May definitely be worth looking into.

I’ve never met a dog I didn’t like… ever.

Ide sooner put myself down than put a dog down because he isn’t nice to be with

Work harder on correcting the issue

Seems like he's giving Alpha tendencies.

...but I'm not living with him so you're the best judge.

It’s a rat dog that you’ve babied because it’s small and cute.
Taking a picture of it chewing a boat shoe rather than taking it away has me leaping to that conclusion.

It’s always the small ones that have issues - the owners of full size ones actually train their dogs rather than letting them run riot. Despite it being only the size of a hamster - it’s still a dog, and needs to know where it’s place in the hierarchy is.


GL teaching an old dog new tricks…

I was going to bed after reading this thread but all I could think about was Owen and had to get back up.

I’ve had 9 dogs and 1 cat. I currently have 2 dogs. One of them, a mini schnauzer is almost 6 and has been a pain since we brought him home. He is not aggressive with us but has always been distant. Always hated being picked up. Hates everyone except my wife and I. The vet hates him and he hates the vet. He hates the neighbors and they hate him, and now they hate me. I can’t travel because I can’t leave him with anyone. I no longer have friends over. No more band practice at my house on and on. I’ve tried. Maybe not tried hard enough. But I love him and he loves me and I would never abandon him or give up on him.

My dogs would run out the door into the road at the first opportunity. That’s where the squirrels and chipmunks are. The reason why they don’t is because we are hyper vigilante about it. If I do have anyone over, I have to watch my guests so that they do not leave the gate open. Everyone thinks I’m am ass. Oh well.

Sounds like your dog has had issues since the beginning but also you should consider that he lost his companion too. Maybe he ran out to search for Madison.

When we first got our Buddy, we did so because we had 2 dogs and one died. We brought Buddy home and his older sister became his mother. He paid no attention to us, only to her. Then she died suddenly and I could see the trauma this caused him. We searched for another rescue dog for him and even had a breeder bring over a puppy. He took about 30 seconds to decide he didn’t like our Buddy and he drove off with the puppy. We eventually found a half dead stray dog that we nursed back to life and now Buddy has a new best friend. He still has his issues though.

I don’t know what the answer is but your post said you’re having “tearful” conversations about this. If tears are involved then I suspect the thing to do is work with the dog or just accept him for who he is. If I didn’t have dogs already I would offer to take him because I know 100% he would be safe with us but I can’t do that. Hopefully you’ll find the right answer but to be honest, the animal lover in me hopes whatever happens is in Owen’s best interest. Good luck and sorry for the cold response above

Good suggestions, tough to say which is the right call.

Wireless dog fence setup would keep him from getting run over maybe.

Dog trainer is probably the droid you are after. Mom's rescue dog improved greatly with the trainer. Also made great strides when I brought my dogs over. When she first got that dog, it would not do anything but sit in the corner. You sort of have the opposite problem, bad alpha being a bad alpha. Someone else needs to take charge, and a trainer can help you with that.

There is truth to that. To some extent the problem was caused by the way he was raised. We got him for the wrong reasons. My wife's dog companion of many years had died a few weeks before we got married. She wanted a dog to take his place. I can see how it would be hard to raise a new dog when you are still mourning the loss of a long time companion.

She got Owen because she missed her old dog. When I got my Maddie it was because because I wanted HER and there is the difference.

My wife was not interested in training Owen. I was fully occupied with Madison since before we even met, so she raised Owen in her own way.

When I got Maddie she and I went to puppy school together when she was a few weeks old, then to two levels of obedience school. We interacted constantly and were best friends. We made each other happy and there was joy in our relationship. Owen got none of that. He was a replacement dog and that's part of the problem.

BTW the "rat dog" comment is way off the mark. Owen and Madison were both the same size, but different as night and day. The old shoe in the picture was one of Maddie's toys.

Analyzing what went wrong isn't solving the immediate problem. When we got him back to the house Monday night the dam broke. We looked at each other and confessed that we don't really like Owen and had been feeling that way for a long time. Neither one of us had the courage to say it before. It was a gut punch for both of us. We love him in a way, but we don't like him. He is ours and he is our responsibility, but he is ruining our lives.

While Owen takes up our time and attention, our rescue dog Gracie just cruises along. She is tolerant of him, but they don't interact.

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4 years ago we fostered then adopted a tough case. The dog had been abused and essentially left in the back yard for years. The rescue group had placed her several times and she was returned - a natural escape artist. She would hide behind a chair and shake until her teeth clattered when I walked into the room. I took patience and time - sounds like you have given time and are out of patience. Been there. Bea is a different dog - loves to play and wrestle with our Aussie - but it took a lot of time for here to learn to be a dog, and to play. Still, she panics around strangers, and Friday I will be replacing $3K worth of carpet she tore up trying to get away from the evil house cleaner.

In the balance, as pissed as I was, we get more from Bea than she takes, same with the Aussie. So she gave us an opportunity to replace old carpet...

A good friend swears by CBD treats for his dog...

Also - there is nothing like a golden... we lost our Annabelle 7 years ago, I think the best dog we ever had. Took my wife a couple of years to miss having a dog enough to move on. BTW an Australian Shepherd puppy is the cutest evil beast on the planet. She is now a pleasure, but holy crap she made us work for it.

There you have it. The dog is not trained and will be forever so.

You will have some sleepless nights with any decision.
Personally I'd be finding a better place for Owen.

Very interesting thread, WD. As they say, the only easy day was yesterday.

We came very close to returning a rescue Heeler, Cassie. In the below pic she is older and wiser.

When we got her she was a very angry dog who had been left alone for long periods of time, probably abused.

She was exhausting and my wife was at her wits end...many of the same emotions you guys are going through.

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She had Earl the wonder lab and that probably changed her, allowed her to begin to trust again. We got lucky, no other way to say it: Earl the Pearl.

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Whatever path you choose is going to be difficult. I wish that wasn't true.

Best.

Why not talk to a professional trainer?

The electronic shock collars will alter behavior, try one out, give it a chance

Shock collar X2. We live across the fairway from a lagoon that has alligators in it and needed to know Bosco would come back when we called him. We did the off leash training with the shock collar and he learned very quickly (come, place, stay, heel). Very seldom do I have to zap him but when I do, it just gets his attention and he does as he is told. Couple of times I had it turned up too high and he yiped but no harm done. The vet said “he doesn’t know you’re doing it, he thinks God is getting after him”! Anyway I highly recommend Off Leash Training. Google it.

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It's socialization more than training, but you are correct it will be forever so. There's no winding it back. I spent just a couple of months with him last summer and he is smart as a whip. I taught him sit-stay, down-stay, sing, wave, and how to wait at a door for permission before going through it. He was taken from his mother before 8 weeks, plus when we got him home it was always just the four of us. He didn't have much interaction with other people or other dogs. He didn't have much opportunity to learn how to be a dog in a human world. Big mistake on our part.

We had a good conversation with our vet. She is wonderful. She thinks a big part of his problem is anxiety. She identified a few things we need to look at:

The leader of the pack is gone, and he doesn't know where he stands in the group.

The CATS! I didn't think about the cats, but we have six cats roaming around outside. Even if he can't see them he knows they are there, and probably keeping him on edge. It may be the reason he barks to be let out 20 times a day, and still comes in to pee on the carpet. My opinion is this is big. There is one cat that loves to sit on Vicki's lap when she's outside and it drives Owen insane.

We don't exercise him enough. Good point. I hate walking him, but I'm doing it wrong. I let him stop and smell and pee on everything in sight. I do it because I think he likes it and I'm doing him a favor, but it's torture for me. I need to march him on a short lead down the center of the road so he isn't pulling and jerking the leash. Get him tired.

She is giving him trazadone to calm his ass down. She wasn't real confident of the benefits to CBD but said it probably wouldn't hurt so I ordered some.

One thing that Vic and I discussed is the fact that it is mid winter and we both are susceptible to SAD. We are depressed, short tempered, and pissed off about everything most of the time due to the weather and that ain't helping.

I'm optimistic that we can fix this, or at least make it tolerable.

Thanks for all the input here. You guys are amazing.

A tired dog is a good dog and is good for the people too. I think walking him more will be good for all of you.

Amen rwest. Every dog is different, but if our Aussie is not walked and worked, there is some chaos. When they have lots of time in the yard to burn energy and walked, and part of the pack, holy crap difference.

FWIW - dogs can be a burden, but it is worth it. Every gap in our adult lives without a dog we fully agree had a hole in it. They are family, and family can be messy at times.

Don't beat yourself up, everyone has ups and downs.

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my terror..
my Murphy..
was a long road..
he lived to be 12..
active terrorist in his early years..
awesome oldie...
miss him tooo...


Rika

Which is it, WD? Hopeless/doomed? Or is there hope?

Our rescue dog, a Heeler mix, who had been abused. It took her 1.5 years to stop being afraid of me. During that time, she cowered and escaped when I tried to touch her. We have now had her for 2.3 years and I think she no longer remembers being unloved. She still has some behavioral challenges, but she is WAY better and just a wonderful companion.

Among other strategies, we worked with a dog trainer. Actually she trained us, not the dong. She strongly asserted that you CAN teach new tricks to old dogs. EVERY dog can learn.

I agree. Your dog is not doomed. And maybe the question is whether you can invest the time. That said, i think there is no wrong answer. It's your call. You have given Owen a good life.

We started following the vet's ideas this morning. I took him for a walk on a short lead and kept him close to me except for a couple of poop and pee breaks. When he strained against the leash I gave a little tug back and give him the sharp corrective sound I used with Maddie - "Ehh!"
He is such a smart little bugger. After a few hundred yards he got the idea and kept the leash slack except for a couple of times. It was actually a pleasant walk. 1 1/2 miles and he was ready to be home.
Unlike Maddie who would look up at me to check in every few yards, he kept his head down and trotted along. He and I are just not that connected, but I guess I can live with it. I have to keep telling myself he isn't Maddie and never will be.
Don't know what to do about the cats.

Congrats! You could end up wondering who is learning the most.

Poor guy..
he isn't..
not even trying to..
but everyone keeps pointing this out to him ..
then your Lady and her cats...
must be like a Catholic in a Muslim foster home..
well intentioned but...
everyone's life is to short for all this..
ask about..

Rika

Yeah, a lot of truth there. I'm learning what I have to do for him and learning about myself. I think when I look at Owen something in my subconscious says, "You're not Maddie" and I get resentful and pissed off at him. I have to stop that. Got some training of my own to do I guess. I shouldn't take it out on him.

What to do about the cats? Here he is pulling sentry duty, guarding his dog run against an incursion of ninja kitties. He watched for them four hours at a time. I won't go into the whole cat behavior problem, but I have a plan for what to do.

I want to thank all of you who posted to this thread, helping pull me off the ledge. This can be a great place.


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We just threw ideas up. You did the thinking and deciding. And now, it sounds like you've got some new awarenesses and a project. Fun!

Your dog is barking a thousand times a day to go outside for the same reason mine does. He hears something out there. I have no idea how he does it with the windows closed in the dead of winter but when any of the 4 houses around me let out a dog (all fenced in city lots), he knows. We say, no way can’t be that but then look and sure enough….there’s a dog out. He has super sensitive hearing beyond what I thought a dog was capable of

Cats, it’s weird cause we always had dogs and cats inside and had no issues but my dog Buddy goes more insane when he sees a cat than anything else. He sits on the top of the couch behind my head looking out and if the cat from across the street is seen by him the instant piercing vicious barking he lets out could give you a heart attack. I don’t know why but he hates cats

I could eliminate this by moving the couch but I live with it because he enjoys looking out there. I put up with a lot of schit for this dog but I love him

You are a good man.

I think we have come up with a solution to the barking. So far we couldn't tell if he was barking to be let out to pee or barking because he hears a cat. So we are taking him out and sticking with him until we see him drain himself. Then we put the Bark Box by the door for a few hours because we know if he's there barking it's because of a cat.

We got the Bark Box to use when we traveled with the dogs to keep them quiet. It emits a high pitched sound that they don't like. They hated it so much that all they had to do was see it and they quieted down.

It rained all day yesterday but I'm about to take him out for a 1/2 mile march.