Freestanding Cabinet Kitchen

[jyl]

Here is another house project I’m trying to get going on. It is time to do the kitchen. I have a friend of a friend, a rocket scientist who retired from JPL (I think) to become a furniture maker. I’m probably going to hire him to make my cabinets - I’ll get countertops done locally and do the install myself.

I have a weird concept for the cabinets. The house was built in 1911, as you know from other threads. I have an imaginary backstory where the kitchen developed organically over a century, instead of being all torn out and remodeled in 2023.

Back in 1911, it was common for kitchens to be “unfitted”. Cabinets were freestanding pieces of furniture that were acquired and moved in and out over the years. Fitted kitchens came more into vogue in the 1930s.

So the plan is:
- 16’ straight run of cabinets on one wall. No inside corner cabinets.
- Layout is roughly, from left to right, 2.5’ (wide) cabinet for cooking supplies, 1.5’ prep sink cabinet, 4’ cabinet for prep, 2’ wash sink cabinet, 6’ cabinet for dishwasher and dish storage. Window is above the 4’ cabinet.
- Cabinets all drawers, except the sink cabs. Sinks “farm” style, oriented to take up the full counter depth from counter edge to wall (turned 90 degree from typical). Either white ceramic or custom made from soapstone. Faucets wall mounted.
- Countertops for the 2.5’ and 6’ cabinets probably black or green soapstone. Countertop for the 4’ cabinet may be butcher block, or something not soapstone. Countertops will overlap the sink sides (splash control). Countertops will have a 6’” tall mini-backsplash. Note countertop will thus not be “continuous” or uniform.
- Cabinets are freestanding furniture pieces (stand on legs, not boxes on a base). 3-4” clearance under cabinets (for my Roomba robot vacuum). Shaker style. Inset drawers/doors, may be panel or slab fronts. Cabinets 24” deep, countertops 25-26” deep (overhang on front and rear) and around 37-38” high.
- Cabinets stabilized to wall with French cleats, but removable. There will be a little shelf (3” deep) attached to the wall, above the countertops’ mini-backsplashes (conceal gap to wall, keep little things from cluttering countertops). Levelers inset into legs.
- 2.5’ and 6’ cabinets, and sink cabinets, probably painted (by me) - maple. 4’ cabinet probably clear finished (by me) - quarter-sawn white oak, at least the front.

I’ll upload a drawing later.

I’m looking for gotchas - what is going to be a problem that I don’t foresee?

Also for ballpark how much would be reasonable to pay for these cabinets to be made? Transport, finishes, countertops, installation not included. I know it won’t be cheap at all.

[gacook]

Originally Posted by jyl

Here is another house project I’m trying to get going on. It is time to do the kitchen. I have a friend of a friend, a rocket scientist who retired from JPL (I think) to become a furniture maker. I’m probably going to hire him to make my cabinets - I’ll get countertops done locally and do the install myself.

I have a weird concept for the cabinets. The house was built in 1911, as you know from other threads. I have an imaginary backstory where the kitchen developed organically over a century, instead of being all torn out and remodeled in 2023.

Back in 1911, it was common for kitchens to be “unfitted”. Cabinets were freestanding pieces of furniture that were acquired and moved in and out over the years. Fitted kitchens came more into vogue in the 1930s.

So the plan is:
- 16’ straight run of cabinets on one wall. No inside corner cabinets.
- Layout is roughly, from left to right, 2.5’ (wide) cabinet for cooking supplies, 1.5’ prep sink cabinet, 4’ cabinet for prep, 2’ wash sink cabinet, 6’ cabinet for dishwasher and dish storage. Window is above the 4’ cabinet.
- Cabinets all drawers, except the sink cabs. Sinks “farm” style, oriented to take up the full counter depth from counter edge to wall (turned 90 degree from typical). Either white ceramic or custom made from soapstone. Faucets wall mounted.
- Countertops for the 2.5’ and 6’ cabinets probably black or green soapstone. Countertop for the 4’ cabinet may be butcher block, or something not soapstone. Countertops will overlap the sink sides (splash control). Countertops will have a 6’” tall mini-backsplash. Note countertop will thus not be “continuous” or uniform.
- Cabinets are freestanding furniture pieces (stand on legs, not boxes on a base). 3-4” clearance under cabinets (for my Roomba robot vacuum). Shaker style. Inset drawers/doors, may be panel or slab fronts. Cabinets 24” deep, countertops 25-26” deep (overhang on front and rear) and around 37-38” high.
- Cabinets stabilized to wall with French cleats, but removable. There will be a little shelf (3” deep) attached to the wall, above the countertops’ mini-backsplashes (conceal gap to wall, keep little things from cluttering countertops). Levelers inset into legs.
- 2.5’ and 6’ cabinets, and sink cabinets, probably painted (by me) - maple. 4’ cabinet probably clear finished (by me) - quarter-sawn white oak, at least the front.

I’ll upload a drawing later.

I’m looking for gotchas - what is going to be a problem that I don’t foresee?

Also for ballpark how much would be reasonable to pay for these cabinets to be made? Transport, finishes, countertops, installation not included. I know it won’t be cheap at all.

Kitchen functionality/convenience of use.

Unless my mind's eye is completely broken, your sink idea sounds horrible (to me and how I'd want a kitchen). If you're not a "kitchen dweller" it may not matter but if you do a lot of the cooking, you want a kitchen that's functional and what you've described above doesn't sound like it is.

I reserve the right to change my mind based on your drawing. My mind's eye may be broken, as mentioned above.

***EDIT***I'm biased AGAINST old things. People who like old buildings because they're "historic or classic, i've never understood. Most old buildings/homes are not what I'd consider nice and/or functional. We have evolved and improved our ways of building, technology, and figuring out what "works." Old stuff needs to be torn down and build new/better (IMO). SO...take ANYTHING I say with a huge grain of salt. LOL

[jyl]

The general idea is something like the above.



I gave the cabinet maker the screenshot above as a general idea. It's basically a dresser. However, we will have a plywood side and maybe slab drawer fronts.



Here is a rough sketch. Cabinet run (at top of sketch) is 194".

Here's my logic for the sink orientation. The prep sink need not be large, but I don't want one of those tiny prep saucer-sinks that are only big enough to wash your hands. The wash sink needs to be a single bowl, large enough to soak half sheet pans (13" x 18"), big stockpots, etc. So a medium sink and a large sink. I don't want the sinks to take up more countertop width than necessary (small kitchen). I don't want a stub of countertop between the sink and the wall (unevenness with adjoining counter, water splashes into gap). So the solution is turn the sinks 90 degrees, have them use the entire depth of the countertop, and wall mount the faucets (they will be commercial kitchen faucets, with a pre-rinse on the wash sink). Might be a problem for a 5' 2" woman to reach the back of the sinks, but the 37-38" counter height is going to rule her out anyway.

As for old/historic, the value of this house is in its age and period appearance. People buy houses in my neighborhood for the historic aspect. They (and I) want the mod cons, in a historic look. Granted, the commercial appliances/monster hood are going to narrow the appeal, but hopefully the next owner will be seriously into cooking.

[gacook]

IF you have the faucet as one of those that pulls out like a hose, I think it should be doable. IF it's fixed like a traditional faucet, I think the depth could prove "annoying" for anyone average height and below.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by gacook

IF you have the faucet as one of those that pulls out like a hose, I think it should be doable. IF it's fixed like a traditional faucet, I think the depth could prove "annoying" for anyone average height and below.

Good point. I can also get a longish swing neck.

[gacook]

Originally Posted by jyl

Good point. I can also get a longish swing neck.

That's what I meant. With something like that, I think there shouldn't be much issue with your idea.

Mine is a long swing neck that also pulls out (connects magnetically). I freaking love the thing.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

Good point. I can also get a longish swing neck.

They do make necks of all different lengths, although 8" is the most common.

It's probably not in the cards for you, but we are nearly done with our kitchen reno. We bought a panel-ready Bosch dishwasher so you can put a matching cabinet door on the front of it which is nice. But you may just be sticking with your existing dishwasher in which case that's not a thing for you. They also make refrigerators that look retro and refrigerators that are panel-ready. Both are pricey options.

I like what you'd doing. I think you should be able to get sinks like you want in either enameled cast iron or vitreous clay or soapstone. I think with the soap stone you're stuck with green, and it's thick and heavy and all of it comes from the Virginia area. But I suspect you could get it made to the size that you want.

If it was up to me, I'd go with the enameled cast iron. I'm not sure how easy it'll be to find a sink that's 24" front to back. I don't think you'll be able to mount an apron front sink sideways because of the apron front, but maybe I'm not understanding you.

It's interesting for you to have 2 sinks, and have them separated by a bunch of counter. The usual is to have the sinks together and in front of a window. But having the prep counter area in front of the window will also be nice.

There are 3 main types of sinks like these.

If you get this sort, very carefully watch the front to back depth and make sure that the sink is 25-26" front to back. Also, if the valves for the faucet are horizontal like in the pic below, then the faucet intrudes a lot (often the handles are 6" into the sink, then there's the spout sticking out from that!) into the sink area. It's possible (but more difficult) to find faucets where the pipes come out and then make a 90º turn and the valves are then vertical. Those intrude into the sink space a lot less.


This is a more old fashioned sink, with the back splash and drain board on the side. Very cool. It has the same possible faucet issue as the one above.


Some apron fronts are undermount like this one. So they won't go all of the way back to the wall, because you need space between the back of the sink and the wall for the plumbing.


I'm not sure what it's called, but a top/flange mount is also possible. Again, there's going to be some space at the back for the plumbing, but it will look like the sink goes nearly all of the way to the wall.

[jyl]

Right now we have a single sink with two bowls. I HATE it. I'm prepping, wife is trying to get in there to wash something, snaps at me for getting chicken smooge on the clean dishes she stacked in the other sink bowl, etc. Or she's cooking and dumps her hot dirty pot in the sink right when I'm trying use it, so I have to wash her pot before I can resume my prep. Its to the point that I refuse to work in the kitchen if she's also working there. Yeah, we are crabby long-married folks. So I want prep and wash in distinctly separate areas.

We also need a completely separate area for wash-up, because our dishwasher is a commercial undercounter high-temp Hobart. Pre-rinse dishes, load rack, rack in machine, push button, wait 120 seconds, open door, big cloud of steam, put rack of 195F dishes on counter, they are dry in a minute. Super fast for large dinner parties, and an efficient cooking workflow (as soon as pot comes of the burner, blast it with the pre-rinse, toss into rack, in 120 seconds hang clean pot up) - when you're done cooking, most of the clean-up is already done. But that means you need clear counter space above the dishwasher to set the rack on. Which is right where my prep area is. Totally SUCKS.

I'm trying hard to consider aesthetics and salability in this remodel. I was originally going to go stainless steel commercial throughout. My wife, and the cow she had, talked me out of it. So now we need a kitchen that is "pretty" as well as functional.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

So now we need a kitchen that is "pretty" as well as functional.

ROFLMAO! I wouldn't know anything about that kind of thing (where's the green text button again)

I get it about the sinks. I don't like most double sinks because that usually means they are too small for larger items. And as you've said two people in the kitchen both working at the same time can make things difficult.

[look 171]

That is why a prep sink is needed to avoid getting lip from wives. I have a smaller sink at the other end of our kitchen. We cook 4-5 days a week. When she's in there, I don't dare go in the kitchen to do anything else but for a glass of water. When I am trying to make something(I suck at cooking BTW) she use to come in and tell me how to do it. I jsut bite my tongue, lips stay shut.

I see two thing that may be an issue. The 24" is a bit too small for a sink. You need room under to service the pipes and such. 24 is really on the tight side. Why do you want it movable and not attached to the wall? How about the plumbing? If it shifts, it will yank on the drain pipe.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by look 171

That is why a prep sink is needed to avoid getting lip from wives. I have a smaller sink at the other end of our kitchen. We cook 4-5 days a week. When she's in there, I don't dare go in the kitchen to do anything else but for a glass of water. When I am trying to make something(I suck at cooking BTW) she use to come in and tell me how to do it. I jsut bite my tongue, lips stay shut.

I see two thing that may be an issue. The 24" is a bit too small for a sink. You need room under to service the pipes and such. 24 is really on the tight side. Why do you want it movable and not attached to the wall? How about the plumbing? If it shifts, it will yank on the drain pipe.

Ooo good points.

Maybe I’ll have him build the sink cabinets with open sides. If I need to service pipes, I can just move the adjoining cabinet out of the way and have easy access. And I can screw the sink cabinets to the wall too.

For some reason, I’m kind of hung up on having the sinks be on their own little cabinets.

[look 171]

Is there a reason why you want it movable?

[jyl]

I have a T&S pre-rinse faucet now. Will probably get that again, but wall mount - sort of like this, they have different size and height spouts, large and small handles, etc.

https://www.tsbrass.com/p/eversteel-low-profile-pre-rinse-units/SMPF-8WLN-06

[jyl]

Originally Posted by look 171

Is there a reason why you want it movable?

The sink cabinets - no, they would be fixed to the wall.

[look 171]

Only three base cabinets are removable, both ends and the one under the window while the both sink base are attached? What's the benefit or what are you trying to achieve?

[jyl]

Originally Posted by look 171

Only three base cabinets are removable, both ends and the one under the window while the both sink base are attached? What's the benefit or what are you trying to achieve?

Primarily, I want to get an unfitted, freestanding, period kitchen of separate pieces standing on legs. The opposite of a modern fitted kitchen with continuous counters on boxes.

(I know there are box cabinets with faux legs.)

Then the question is, should I then screw each piece to the wall? It seems weird to not fasten a kitchen cabinet to the wall, but as I thought about it, I couldn’t come up with a reason to do so. These will be pretty substantial pieces. It seems they shouldn’t slide around or wobble, any more than a solid dining table or china hutch does (I have a small center island that is a freestanding piece, it’s even on locking casters, and it is immobile enough). I compromised with myself by planning to use French cleats to hold the pieces in their location (or at least I’ll leave clearance behind the pieces to allow cleats; if the pieces are stable, then I may not actually install the cleats).

The sink cabinets seem different, because of the plumbing. In 1911, the one piece in a kitchen that was fixed in place was the sink. Sometimes it was even wall-mounted.

[LWJ]

I have shaker style cabinets in my kitchen. Made by Mad Genius German craftsmen. We underpaid by HUGE amounts for the killer work they did. They are some of the best in the area.

BUT, the shaker style that I requested, while it looks amazing, has a big flaw.

Sharp, corners and edges.

The square edges and corners don't wear nearly as well as more rounded edges. Case in point is my In-laws with circa 1986 cabinets that look nearly flawless. (Look dated and ugly as well, but that is a different thing).

My cabinets are about 15 years old and have some problems. I have come to believe that shaker style is simply not a very great style for longevity.

(Note on shaker style because it is a favorite factoid. The Shakers were a religious movement in the 1800's. They advocated separation of men and women. Families were not promoted and may have been discouraged. Resulting in very few children being born into the Shaker movement. See any Shakers around in 2023? Me either. They all died out. I find this hilarious.)

[masraum]

Originally Posted by LWJ

I have shaker style cabinets in my kitchen. Made by Mad Genius German craftsmen. We underpaid by HUGE amounts for the killer work they did. They are some of the best in the area.

BUT, the shaker style that I requested, while it looks amazing, has a big flaw.

Sharp, corners and edges.

The square edges and corners don't wear nearly as well as more rounded edges. Case in point is my In-laws with circa 1986 cabinets that look nearly flawless. (Look dated and ugly as well, but that is a different thing).

My cabinets are about 15 years old and have some problems. I have come to believe that shaker style is simply not a very great style for longevity.

(Note on shaker style because it is a favorite factoid. The Shakers were a religious movement in the 1800's. They advocated separation of men and women. Families were not promoted and may have been discouraged. Resulting in very few children being born into the Shaker movement. See any Shakers around in 2023? Me either. They all died out. I find this hilarious.)

Poplar seems to be popular for cabinet doors these days, and it's not that hard. We just had shaker doors made for our cabinets. We asked for the outside edges of the doors to be hit with a 1/8" radius round-over router bit to help with that. I'm sure they will/can still get bumped, and the corners are still sharp, but it should help.

Shaker would not have been my first choice, but the GC sort of pushed them (they are popular, look great, etc...), and the missus agreed to go with them. I mostly left my opinion out of the decision for the kitchen, "whatever you like honey." I suspect they are quicker, easier, and cheaper than some other door types.

[911 Rod]

What does your wife want?

[jyl]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

What does your wife want?

She likes these plans including the freestanding look. She wants copper countertops; I’m considering it, but I’d be the one polishing them or being bothered that they are brown. I know that because we have a ton of French copper cookware and guess who does the polishing.