Well Bill Nye has an engineering degree yet he is THE Science Guy.

If you are recognized/licensed by the professional organization then you belong. People who graduated law school but do not have a license are not technically lawyers.

ROFLMAO!
Probably smarter than the average bear, I'd bet. I'm guessing you've had more than a smattering of math, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, statistics, circuits, and computer based course work. I'm sure it's possible to skate by, I don't think it's likely that you've got a BSEE if you're not at least a little brighter than a candle.
Dude! You're showing your age with that one.

speaking of bridges...

https://1000logos.net/wp-content/upl...co-history.jpg

There are two answers here. One answer from professional (graduate) engineers. And one from 'practicing' engineers.

Where you live, and what rules apply in your jurisdiction are the ultimate arbiter. Where I live your 'friend' is not an engineer. In many states, and in many people's minds, he is an engineer.

Cool and interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

I started college to be an EE, but it sounded boring. I never talked to anyone about what I should do, and I had no idea what I wanted to do. I think I might have enjoyed getting an ME degree. I didn't finish my degree because I had no motivation "I want to get this degree so I can go be a _____".

I don't regret my path. I consider the college that I did experience (about 60% of a BS) a valuable education. I enjoy what I do. There was no degree when I went to school for the work that I do now. I don't think there were any certifications either. There are certifications for what I do now. I had a few back in the beginning when they were useful to demonstrate my knowledge on the subject or get my resume looked at or put on the top of the pile. All of my certs have expired and my bosses don't care if I go get any. My knowledge, experience, and ability to learn new stuff makes me valuable.

I get a bit of satisfaction, Having been retired close to two years

That colleagues of mine and others in the industry occasionally reach out and ask

"Hey Tim, about this?"

That makes my whole career, all the years all the little nuggets of knowledge that aren't taught, only learned so rewarding..

A degree doesn't define anyone. Especially now in days where affirmative action digs out the weeds and puts them in first in line for professional titles... competency does not equate from a degree.

I see so many incompetent kids graduate with Ph.D.'s that use store bought kits, never synthetized a compound or let alone stepped into a wet lab(computational anything)... this is what we promote...

My fathers job was structual steel detailing. He wasnt an engineer didnt go to school for it or anything. He had to send off the drawings at the end to get them stamped. But he did entire hospitals, malls and shopping centers, dealerships and whatever else they wanted. All on paper he didnt do computer stuff. I dont think anyone could argue that he wasnt an engineer

Well, now, David, you get into the territory of a 'building engineer' in the sense of running and maintaining the equipment required to power the environment of a large building. That's what they've been called in the sense of a train engineer.

You wouldn't call out a train engineer.

I kinda go with CP and others on this one in that if you are competent enough to design something that receives a patent, you may be a designer, or in some cases, functioning as someone who engineered the item.

To reiterate the question, "Does a degree define being an engineer?" Yes in my thinking, but to sell services to the public seems to be the next hurdle, e.g., becoming licensed by the state in which you work.

I have encouraged my very smart and artistic granddaughter to study design engineering.

My Calc 2 teacher insisted we address him as Dr. Me being the ******* I am would always address him when I asked a question as "professor" and he would always correct me...

I remember first day of class he stated that 75% of us wouldn't make it to the final exam.. he was right.. I failed Calc 2 first go round..

That teacher was an insufferable douchebag.....

Oh and he was a Dr in Philosophy

Oops apologies for the hijack

My late father studied Mechanical Engineering at Auburn. He did poorly, but was determined to graduate. His advisor told him, in general terms, the Chemical Engineering program was 'easier' than Mechanical, so my dad changed majors, and aced his last two years. He got his Professional Engineering stamp/license around 30, and worked mostly in the pulp/paper industry for nearly 50 years, the last 20 as a hired gun. His only professional regret was not going independent earlier.

Rewind to 1978, and as a freshly-graduated high school punk, I too, felt the tug to study engineering. I'd dabbled in electrical, but did not have the grades/SAT to get into a 'pure' engineering school, and opted for the 'engineering technology' track instead. My freshman year, I honestly tried, and did okay with English and History, but the math, drafting, chemistry, etc. totally kicked my butt. After three quarters, and sub-2.0 GPA, it was clear this was not a good choice, and I'd not even taken a single electrical class!t

I ended up switching to Business/Print Media and did just fine. When I think back on that ill-fated freshman year, I am so thankful the system worked as it should. I could not make 'the cut' but if I had manged to squeak by I would have made an absolutely lousy engineer.

So yeah, you can get whatever printed on a business card, but I'm a firm supporter than formally learning theory and the roots of a specific engineering area and actually graduating is critical in many situations. Hell, if nothing else, having a formal degree will open more doors than not.

My dad was a lifetime electrical engineer, but he did not have an engineering degree.

He designed power connectors for Boeing commercial aircraft engines and held a patent.

… and to Roberts point, these days, a STEM degree is a mandatory requirement for an engineering position.

In my experience there are (2) types of actinal "engineers". Those who operate heavy equipment--following in the train engineer vein--"operating engineers", and those who hold some type of stamp(professional engineer). Regardless of anyone's education, experience, talent, skills, etc. anything less is not a true 'Engineer" You can be the best designer in the world, but if you submit a drawing without a "stamp", it equates to (2) things "jack" and "****". This is not to downplay anyone's abilities or education, but anything less is just not an "Engineer" in the true professional sense.

I believe for someone to call themselves an engineer these days, one needs to have an engineering degree. IMHO.

(Of course, I am not referring to an Operating Engineer - that is an entirely different thing.)

As an R&D engineer & as a senior manager (with over 30 US patents) someone would have to be astoundingly well qualified for me to consider hiring them as an engineer without a degree in that field.

It used to be that in NY state you could get state certification as an architect without a degree, but I believe the rules changed many years ago. I had a university undergraduate classmate who has mentioned several times - including in his new podcast - that his father was a very successful non-degreed architect. Oh yeah, in keeping with the Cornell comments in the prior posts - GO BIG RED!!! That was at Cornell (and the classmate I'm referring to was communications major Keith Olbermann).

LOTS of people call themselves engineers, when in fact they are technicians or CAD designers.

This is not to say that non-degreed engineers don't exist, but in my long professional experience that category has been fading away for many years. In fact, in the later stages of my career, I saw that most of the "fresh out" engineers I hired had masters degrees because it was not all that unusual.

Being a Professional Engineer (i.e. having a PE license) requires a degree, a minimum number of years of professional experience and passing several exams (specifically the EIT "engineer in training" & PE exams). Notably, the PE license is quite valuable in Civil Engineering and related fields, but outside of that - not so much.

Getting an engineering degree is a LOT of work compared to many other undergraduate programs, but it just gives one the "tools". It is the professional experience applying those tools (e.g. being able to tell when a CAE simulation is giving you b.s. because you understand the underlying physics & math) that makes one a well-qualified engineer - knowing not just the "what" but also the "why".

It is not at all uncommon for engineers to work for several years and decide they want to move up the management ladder and get their MBA, or variations of that degree. I also know of others who study for and take the Patent Bar Exam, not to become patent lawyers but to focus on patents and related intellectual property. There are also people with engineering degrees who went into technical sales or (shudder) Marketing. I also know of at least one person who was an undergraduate Biomedical Engineer who went from that to med school.

Fyi, the German example is interesting. It is required to have an masters-level engineering degree to put "Dipl.-Ing." after one's name, although EU agreements is causing that to be often replaced with an "M.Sc." designation. I professionally worked with a lot of German engineers and they take considerable quiet pride in the "Dipl-Ing" (or "Dr.-Ing.", the equivalent of the US Ph.D.) after their names.

Neither did my pops but going to a community college studying electrical engineering in 1965/66 at 20 years old he was married, had me & my mom at home, and got a job in Silicon Valley before it was called that. coherent radiation was the name of the company, they were a defense contractor, and his boss was fond of him as the story goes. to the point he signed off on my pops getting a draft exemption for Viet Nam service cause CR was working on laser technology for the government.

Never did get his degree, but in another right place right time he got an engineering job with Atari in like 70/71 in the company's infancy. He brought the proto-type home pong video game in an aluminum box with a couple creepy rubber things as paddle dials and put it on our black and white TV for my 5th birthday party in 71. I remain confident there are at least 5-6 kids in their late 50's who remember that day too.


He dicked around after Atari went in the toilet, but after him being in so early there he really did not have to work with all the Atari stock he unloaded just after the chucky cheese thing crashed.


If you can't tell my pops is my best friend and hero...

Or equivalent experience.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and am licensed as a Professional Engineer in two states. I've held both licenses for over 20 years. The short answer to the original question:

Each state has a different legal definition of what constitutes the practice of "engineering, who may call themselves an "engineer", and how to get to that status. For the state of Florida, I would start to seek understanding here:

https://fbpe.org/legal/statutes-and-rules/

I'm not going to get into the whole debate of who should be allowed to call themselves an "engineer"...

Wuz Captain Crunch a real captain?

In my professional life ... an EE degree would only land one their first job (mine was in communications R&D at IBM at RTP) where they were common .... in my bleeding/leading high tech career, in real life.... you either had 'IT', or you did not.... and that's what mattered ;).

I have a Computer Science degree .... I am NOT a scientist either... meh.

I once looked a female in the eyes... soooo... NOT an engineer either :)....

Who cares?

I only have an associates degree in mechanical engineering. For 21 years I designed mainly one off automated machinery for an automated machine design and build company. Over those first 21 years I wore many hats ranging from hands on electrical panel building and machine final assembly/start up/testing to drawing on the boards to machine design using cad. I am named on patents for that company.

For the past 11 years I have worked for a company that designs and builds large stamping line equipment for the automotive industry. Pretty sure all of us in both our mechanical and electrical engineering departments have at least an associate degree with many having bachelors degrees. We are all referred to as "engineers" by our company.

When people ask me what I do for a living I tell them I am a mechanical engineer that designs machinery. Never really thought about whether that description is "proper", but it seems sufficient to convey what I do for a living all these years. I guess I don't really care all that much about the whole questioning of the title or college degree type at this stage of my life.

I wanted to be an architect, but failing calculus ended that.

It was just like when I was eight, and my mamma was gushing about the lofty IQ my brilliant (but weird) oldest brother had. Reasoning I must be brilliant too, I asked her my IQ. She fell silent for a second, looked me over, then replied, "Oh honey, brains aren't everything. You're cute!"

And that's how I learned I was stupid. SmileWavy (true story)

Tim Hancock brings up everlasting interesting points:

- Very often an engineer (with a degree or not) is called upon to be a test tech, a prototype assemblies, a designer, and other tasks. Does that make one more or less of an "engineer"? (IMHO - more.)

- The lines between CAD equipment "designer" and "engineer" have gotten very blurred in recent years. My thinking is that if the CAD jockey also does design analysis (structural, thermal, fluidic, etc., i.e. uses CAE tools and understands them) and understands the design's application (e.g. what the device is supposed to do for the customer/user/patient) than one is not only a "CAD designer".

In my long experience, I've worked with very very good engineers with 2-year Engineering Technology degrees, and with incompetent engineers who have advanced degrees (people who I thought: "Well, somebody had to finish last in their class.")

all PhDs are doctors in philosophy. thats where the PhD comes from. if its not JD (jurist doctorate), or a MD (medical doctorate), its a philosophical doctorate, or PhD. so everything from business, to engineering, to art, to science, is a Philosophical Doctorate.

also, in engineering, unless you want to be a professor, there is no reason to get a PhD.

Worked with thousands of engineers, managed hundreds of them over the decades from all over the world. Only demographic that regularly stamped drawings and reports were Canadian. This varies highly regionally and by industry. With a stamp on your drawings and 5$ + tip you can buy a coffee at starbucks for oil and gas, it just doesn't matter even the tinniest bit. No legal requirements to have a PE license for many regions and fields.

EIT wasn't a high bar in the ye olden days when I was in school, I think the pass rate for the school I attended was well over 90%. I skipped my appointment because I was a college kid and early saturday morning. No regrets

almost everything you encounter on a daily basis, was never stamped by a PE. including, fun fact, most healthcare products.

again outside of civil/environmental, PE is not useful or required or valued.

If by civil you’re capturing all construction trades, you’d be right but to file for a permit, all drawings need to be signed and sealed including civil (site work), structural, mechanical (plumbing/hvac/fire protection) and electrical.

The way I define it, is an engineer is a problem solver applying science and or technology. There are many people with a formal education who are not engineers and many without a formal education who are.

There was a time when someone could sit for the PE without a degree but who had a CV demonstrating his experience working under a licensed engineer. I doubt that’s the case anymore.

I’ve dealt with this elitism firsthand. At a kickoff meeting, I introduced myself as the project engineer and the d****bag of an Architect asked what portion of the project I had designed. I replied that my job was to catch his mistakes before they cost our mutual client money.

I think this probably varies by state, but from what I've seen you need to have graduated from an ABET accredited school.

I kind of forgot that I was an EIT in mechanical engineering. I got it but transferred into the project management path before I had the experience to go for the PE. Thankfully I've never really dealt with elitism from PEs, but then again I haven't worked with many architects. My wife works with them on the daily and lordy lordy the tone they use with anyone not an architect is so condescending.

this is the problem with only defining PE's as engineers, as eric951 was attempting to do.

the reality is that PEs are not the only engineers around. my experience with PEs in civil/evro businesses, is that companies usually only have a couple, and they have tons of engineers that actually do the engineering, and they they have the PE stamp it. so the PE is actually doing the least of the engineering anyway.

meanwhile, there are entire industries that we touch every single day that no PE ever touched anything coming out of them. one wouldnt argue that medical devices have no engineers working on them, and yet, they rarely if ever have a PE touch them.

I never get an air of elitisim from engineers, we don't think we are better than everyone else, just smarter than everyone else.......ok well maybe

I don’t disrespect what Architects do and get along well with those that respect what I do. But there have been a couple that come to mind that were real pricks. And interestingly enough, they both looked like this guy.

https://youtu.be/Sx2e-8FGkB4?si=ZhI6xcUICXFm8ShE

The bolded is pretty interesting--I would have expected there to be licensing requirements for that sort of thing. Is it because it requires full submittal and approval from regulatory agencies anyway?

But yes most design groups have a lot of engineers with a smaller subset of PEs. The PE test is a commitment and it isn't easy, plus I think a lot of people don't want the responsibility that comes from stamping something.

Fortunately for us, there are theoretical physicists who look down on you to keep you in your place.

forgot my green font and know I belong in the basement with a red stapler.


Never once in my life considered engineering a particularly glamorous or prestigious gig.

mmm, i mean yes, medical devices are subject to a lot of regulatory for sure. but also plenty of unregulated industries, no PE signs off on what they are selling you. basically that is limited to structural, civil and environmental stuff.

and then there are plenty of engineering that isnt actually in product development, but process and research areas too. figuring out how to optimize production processes, stuff like that. that stuff never leaves the building, but its all engineering too.

In Canada, 'Engineer' is a restricted title. The provincial engineering associations such as APEGA (association of professional engineers and geoscientists of Alberta) are very vigilant. Every company that advertises 'engineering' must prove that they have a licensed professional engineer on staff and must have a 'permit to practice'.

So here, not everyone / anyone can call themselves an 'engineer'.

For the better or worse of our system, every Professional Member must prove that they have a 4 year engineering degree from an accredited university or equivalent (APEGA defines what is equivalent). When I was engineering manager at a company that made Pressure Control Equipment (20ksi equipment), the guy on my team that did the drawing and calculation checks was a German trained engineer who was a graduate of a 3 year program and had years of experience. We are still arguing with APEGA about getting him a P.Eng designation. He is one of the brightest and most thorough engineers I've worked with in my career but didn't do a 4 year program... They will grant him a Professional Licensee designation with a limited scope of practice which I think is unfair given his abilities and experience. I'm involved because I was one of his references and recommended him for P.Eng.

As I mentioned above, not everyone with an engineering degree practices engineering. There are also those without a degree that do practice engineering. In Canada, the former can call themselves an 'Engineer' provided they are registered with their provincial engineering authority whereas the latter can not.

Also as professional engineers, we need to prove that we are doing professional development each year and participating in the profession.

This is true but, most employers prefer that medical device engineers possess a minimum of a bachelors degree in biomedical engineering, electrical engineering, or a related scientific field. The degree should include courses in mathematics, physics, chemistry, and computer science.

As a recent ME grad, I hated hearing I wouldn't be an engineer unless I had a stamp.
Then as a PE I agreed with that qualification.
Now in research working with all non-PE PhDs, my view has shifted again since these guys are definitely engineers.
So engineer versus professional engineer.

Actually not true.

You still can become a Professional Engineer by meeting certain requirements.

12 years of experience under a licensed Engineer. a 4 year degree in Engineering counts as 8 years of experience. I believe a Masters degree counts 1 year. So with a degree, you still need at least 4 years under a licensed engineer.

You also need to pass 2 exams. First pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE used to be called the EIT). Then you need to pass the PE exam in your field. And then you need sign off by your mentors who are licensed engineers.

So, you can still apprentice and get a PE license. And you would in fact be a licensed engineer.

Now, most of us who have 4 year degrees in engineering never bother to get a PE license, since we don't need to stamp drawings. But we still are engineers.

Without the PE license, you cannot call yourself an engineer if you do not have a degree in engineering.

but notably not professional engineering licenses.

I don’t know much about the medical equipment field but my guess is that there is a testing and validation process with work.

In construction, we don’t have that benefit.

A foundation is designed and constructed. Now we have an independent inspector who checks that the rebar matches the contract documents. We take concrete samples to ensure the mix conforms as well but there is no other test before a steel column is placed on top.

Similarly, the steel if erected, the bolting and welding tested, the metal deck put down and that’s inspected too. Then a concrete deck is poured, loading the structure.

All of this happens without a validation of the design, so a licensed professional, who’s staking his career and errors and omission insurance on his design is needed.