Does a degree define being an engineer?
 

Soliciting y'all's input to see if my bias is showing.

At what point does a degree define your trade? Obviously to be a doctor you need a medical degree, but what about an engineer, or an architect?

Im asking because this guy was telling me he's an engineer, but he doesn't have an engineering degree. My first thought was he's engaging in puffery, but later I got to thinking. Maybe I'm being unfair?

Is he a licensed PE? Or the equivalent of whatever that is in the state in question? If not, no, IMO.

I have an engineering degree. And sufficient experience that if I were to take and pass the exams I'd be qualified as same.

But I don't call myself an engineer - that would be false advertising imo.

Had this exact discussion with an in-law who decided that a bachelors in civil engineering made him a civil engineer and we should accept his design for [something].
It was shut down quick when I asked if he could legally sign off on blueprints...
edit: It was compounded when he told another one of them - who's an architect and can actually sign off on stuff - that he wasn't qualified to comment. I LOL'd and mentioned Dunning-Kruger...

if you are employed as an engineer, you are an engineer IMO.

conflating who you are, with what you do for a living, is always problematic. i do not recommend.

In the past it was possible to become a licensed engineer by apprenticeship and be grandfathered in.

There are many different types of engineers, just like doctors. Civil engineers are a lot different than an electrical engineer.

It will be interesting to see the answers from a real engineer, which I an NOT, and never claim to be.

It is much like people that use Doctor in their name. You don't know right away if they are a PhD in ancient French literature, or a brain surgeon or a dentist.

I think any engineer in the building trade has a stamp for drawings etc.

Our best clients are land surveyors and land engineers. They have the stamp to make a map we can produce a legal map, and not just a pretty picture of the ground. We never sell a survey, and we don;t claim to do surveys.

We provide the aerial orthophoto, LIDAR data, AutoCAD format elevations grids, and planimetric files and those go right to the guys with the stamps for them to verify and make legal surveys.

You happen live somewhere with a very strict definition of an 'engineer'. In Ontario you need to be a graduate with an engineering degree to be use the title 'engineer'. You can't be a business grad and call yourself a 'sales engineer', or 'applications engineer'.

A real engineer has an engineering degree and real professional designation. Everyone else is a pretend-gineer.

Can he stamp drawings? Or does he just own a calculator and a pocket protector?

What type of an engineer? I have a friend whose job title is software engineer, but he has no accreditation or any degrees / certifications as such. I would describe him as an applied expert but he's not an engineer.

When I was a lab manager I had technicians working for me whose title was Junior Scientist. They had no scientific education other than the training I provided. So, were they scientists?

As for this "conflating who you are, with what you do for a living" it is not part of the question.

Capt. it is my opinion that the person to whom you refer may be engaging in puffery. Also, if you're using your degree directly then that would be a case of the degree defining your trade.

I have a degree in chemistry which I used to build a career in a chemical lab. Therefore I can claim to be a chemist.

I also have a degree in music that I have yet to use. I no longer play an instrument. So, may I refer to myself as a musician? When people ask if I am I respond by saying that I am an "educated listener" of music.

I have been a Field Engineer for 24 years with GE Healthcare. It's a degreed position and the requirements are a BS in an Engineering program or equivalent experience. My Military time and my private Tech School specializing in Diagnostic Imaging satisfy. Most of the folks I work with have BS in Electronics Engineering Technology.

Internally we refer to ourselves as Engineers, and most of our customers do as well.

However, I never try and imply anything other than what I am specifically working in.

Btw, one of my close friends is a P.E. He and I have had this exact convo. He says "Sir, what you do is miles ahead of what damn near any degreed Engineer can understand. You're an Old School, I can do siht, Engineer. Anyone that challenges that is just puffing"

I'll take his opinion.

Not at all.

I stole this from the webs

Environmental engineers typically need a bachelor’s degree in environmental engineering or a related field, such as chemical, civil, or general engineering.

"in reasonable charge of the work". The stamp allows you to do this.

As a Civil Engineer, the stamp is important as much of the design process requires code compliance.

For Mechanical and Electrical, where, IMHO, they are creating new applications and technology, licensing is not essential, as in the aerospace and electronics.

Where these other disciplines intermix as in Civil works like water and sewer treatment then some mechanical and electrical and geotechnical work must be performed by, our under the supervision of an Engineer Licensed in those disciplines.

If you have his name you should be able to see if he is licensed through the online lookup.

https://fbpe.org/licensure/licensee-search/

it is an important distinction. if someone asks who i am, i would say a racer. if someone asks what i do, i would say im an engineer.

so why are they using the engineer? are they using it claim who they are, or what they do?

engineering is an action. not a persona. if you perform the action of engineer, you are engineering.

I don't disagree...entirely. Again it comes down to how you describe engineering. The man I mentioned doesn't plan or design programs he writes the code according to the project goal.

If I build something following the plan that someone else designed, am I the engineer, or are they?

By what you wrote above "performing the action of an engineer" do you mean to include designing a build or just doing the fabrication?

There are so many levels of engineering it's hard to tell. I was an engineer with a BS mechanical engineering at GM. Went to a DOD research lab and I was an "engineering technician." "Engineers" there had masters or Phd degrees and hobnobbed with the physicists.
My friend's title was an "operating engineer" - he was a bulldozer driver.

I would call your friend and engineering tech. He's probably good at his narrow area of expertise, but doesn't have the wide background in theory that makes you as versatile as a degreed engineer.

I personally dont care about a name

I am a degreed engineer, msme.. Work with 100s of enginners. Less than1% pe, a few percent of them not engineering degrees but similar technical degrees: met eet etc. Our company wont give enginnering titles to unrelated degrees.

Some companies don't allow a job title to include the term "Engineer" unless that person is a PE (Professional Engineer) - which means they passed a test and had some OTJ experience.

As said, it really depends on what sort of engineering we're talking about. A civil engineer without a degree and a stamp isn't a civil engineer. A self-taught coder can be a software engineer without question. Your good-for-nothing uncle with a GED can be an operating engineer, too.

So where I'm from, you could put Engr. as a title, like they do with doctors, as in Engr. John Smith. But you would have had to pass a board exam. And it only applies to civil engineers. So people who graduated Mechanical Engineering or Industrial Management Engineering can't put Engr. as a title, because there's no board exam for that. So they are "engineers" but they can't use the title.

Aerospace 101 - Calculus is math in motion (yaw, pitch & roll along with acceleration & velocity).
All the static stationary stuff is XYZ plane math.
Most engineers are XYZ folks.
Statistics is yet another aspect too

Sorta but not everyone with an engineering degree does engineering.

The man that drives a train is called the Engineer, and he may not have an college degree at all.

A structural engineer dang well better have a board certified degree to do his job and certify the design of a structure will hold up to the intended purpose.

The acid test for must engineers is personality. If they mostly look at their own shoes when in conversation, they may well be an engineer. If they look at other people's shoes they are an extroverted engineer. If they look you in the eyes, and claim to be an engineer be suspicious. ;)

My father was an electrical engineer and all he had was a certificate that he received after doing it for a number of years. He was a licenced electrician though.

people who write code more than certainly are or can be engineers.

engineering
[ en-juh-neer-ing ]SHOW IPA

noun
1. the art or science of making practical application of the knowledge of pure sciences, as physics or chemistry, as in the construction of engines, bridges, buildings, mines, ships, and chemical plants.

2. the action, work, or profession of an engineer.


engineering is the art and science of making things real. if you perform this art *and* science, then you are an engineer.

I studied business.. Been a software engineer for 25y though, nobody fired me yet, must be doing the job more or less right ;-) We design and build things, end to end, I guess that counts.

I do agree that would not be cool for engineering bridges though ;-)

I developed software, but I would never call myself a software engineer. My major was in business. Ironically, I do call myself an artist. Yet I lack any study or training in art.
So there ya go! ;)

I worked at Boeing as an Degreed BS Electrical Engineer...........I actually have 3 BS degrees, and 2 Associates. All as a sparky.


does that make me smart no.


I've worked with Fellow EE's that could barely describe how a flashlight works. :eek:

Only engineer type without a degree (and professional cert body/org behind it) would be a software or systems engineer... Which is usually a title.

Eh, network bridges maybe ....

How did he do on the rest of the dating application?

Again I have zero snobbery about this sort of thing, but I have worked with many very skilled engineering techs over the years. Sometimes there is a bit of engineers vs technician friction which is normal and natural and some times hilarious.

I will say that sometimes even in the most skilled techs some lack of fundamental basis will show up from time to time, I am sure it is more common for us engineers to show lack of pragmatism though.

An engineer not knowing how to use a ratchet is more egregious than a tech not grasping the second law of thermodynamics

Here in MN, I have a license to operate heating boilers and my card from the State calls me an Engineer. I took a test, had a few years of experience working around boilers and paid the fee.

So technically I’m an Engineer according to the government, but am I really an engineer? Nope!

Well played. I'm lol-ing for real.

Depends upon the type of engineer. I'm a network engineer. I do complex technical stuff. There's no PE test for that like there would be for an EE, CE, ME, etc...
For a lot of the more traditional sorts of engineers, this is a good answer.
This seems to me to be another good answer. If you're being paid to be an engineer... Of course, then you get into the problem of folks that actually impersonate various professions without being remotely qualified (and can't do the work).

Its an issue of semantics. You cannot call yourself a Professional Engineer unless you have your states licensing regimens and tests. Then you can use the title "I.m. Engineer. P.E."

You can then sign off on plans and documents giving certain legal cache, and submit them to usually approving agencies... I.E. DOT, Building/Planning Depts, really anyone who requires a P.E. Stamp

In New York:

NYS PE Info

The 16 hour exam is broken into the EIT (engineer in traing) and PE sections.. The EIT covers the core, the PE is more core and theory, the second half if the PE is in your specialty (civil, mech, elec.)

EIT is usually taken as a Senior in university.. 5 or so years as an Engineering intern is required before you can sit for the PE exam... Creative application writing helps here...

Lets look at my Uncle... Masters degree in engineering from Cornell, not bad a masters at an Ivy.. He worked for GE in the '60s for the space program... after leaving GE he bounced around finally landing at Sikorsky.. leading a number of projects he could and could not talk about.... I once asked him if he was a licensed engineer, he told me no... because it wasn't worth the trouble in his line of work..

GE... space program... Sikorsky ….whirlybirds secret and not secret..

I think he has a right to call himself an engineer

And my Dad, again a masters in engineering from Cornell...He went to work in the public sector... initially with NYSDOT until he got sick of the malaise which is evident still... He then went to work for Consulting firms which contracted with NYSDOT (Immediately increasing his salary bigly) His path required being a licensed professional engineer....

Given the resumes of both of them... I think both earned being able to tell a date “I'm an Engineer”

BTW I went to SUNY schools.... no Ivy for me

Also you have no ideas of how much design work is done by intern engineers (the ones just breaking into the game) then passed up ,checked and given a once over by the guy who has the stamp...

Another anecdote, my brother, who's licensed in NY,CT,FLA,PA,MASS,ME has never used his stamp.. and he has been in the game for 35 years..

I have a BSME from the U of I in 1973. I have been in manufacturing for 50 years and I'm retired as of this year.

For the first 7 years, I started out on a drafting board as a jr designer, later promoted to designer and senior designer.

The next 7 years, I changed jobs, and my title was design engineer and later senior design engineer.

I had a consulting gig for one year, and for the remaining 35 years I have been with the manufacturing company. My duties and titles have changed. If you ask me what I am today, I will tell you I'm a degreed mechanical engineer by education, but I'm so far removed from engineering, I can't call myself that today.

IMO, the title of engineer is thrown around, anyone can call themselves that. I have respect for those who are PEs, certified, and those who have Masters and Doctorates.

yup, outside of civil/environmental, there really isnt much purpose to getting your PE.

i do fundamental research and development on machining metal ... im not a PE. but im an engineer.

During college while working for the state air resources board, I passed my EIT test. I was given the title of “environmental engineer” before I got my degree. After graduation I got a job with the skunk works as a “hydro-mechanical engineer.” When I asked if they would sponsor me to for a PE license. It wasn’t important in aerospace back then. They prefer years experience within the engineering discipline or a MS degree. With that went clout and you moved up in pay grades. When I went to McDonnell Douglas on commercial planes most of us had MS or MBA degrees. However years of experience or having design authority by means of FAA certification was more important. We all worked under some department sign that stated mechanical, structures, avionics,…”engineering.” So I believe I am an “engineer”. (Retired now).

With that said I worked with several people who earned many patents that didn’t have an engineering degree. They were well respected brilliant self-taught “engineers.” I on the other hand have a degree in Hydro-mechanical engineering with a minor in physics. But I am no physicist.

There is this sort of famous guy...Who was awarded an Engineering title

Ferdinand Porsche

Here's what the state of Texas says about it:

Graduates of all public universities recognized by the American Association of Colleges and Universities who have a degree from an ABET engineering program have the right to disclose any college degrees received and use the title "Graduate Engineer" on stationery, business cards, and personal communications of any character. A graduate engineer who is employed by a registered firm and who is supervised by a licensed professional engineer may use the term "engineer". Refer to the Texas Engineering Practice Act, Section 1001.406.

But it's pretty rare for a non-licensed engineer to get in trouble for claiming to be an engineer especially if they're degreed.

I have seen some building maintenance guys with engineer in their title and I really wanted to call them out on it since they're not degreed, licensed, or even know what engineers really do. But I try really hard to not be a *****.

For the record, I passed the test so I get to say I'm an engineer :)