Building a doorway rough opening in an old, crooked home

[masraum]

If you were building a rough opening for an old (100y) home that's not got a level, straight surface in it, how would you tackle the issue that I'm about to describe.

Let's say that you measured up from the bottom plate to the height of the top of the trimmers to plan where to put the header. And you cut the header to fit, and when you put the header in lined up with the 2 lines on either stud, you discovered that the header was not level. Now the header is going to essentially just be something to attach the top of the door frame to, so it's probably not hugely vital. But you can leave the header crooked or you can make the header level.

Would you make the header level (studs are plumb, so trimmers will be as well)?



If the studs/trimmers are plumb, and the header is level, then those 3 things will be square to each other. What that means if the measurement is off is that the floor is going to be off which means that the gap between the floor and the bottom of the door is going to be off.

So, what would you do?

I think that having the sides and top level, plumb and square will make the rest of the door frame build/install much easier and better.

[Zeke]

"I think that having the sides and top level, plumb and square will make the rest of the door frame build/install much easier and better."

Always the best practice. You can cut the bottom of the door with a gap parallel to the floor and all the visuals look good.

And if it makes any difference, should anyone put wallpaper or vertical paneling on the walls, plumb and level is good. I know wallpaper is not in style so much, but back early in my career we saw a lot more of it. Out-of-plumb corners and casing made for one hell of a job.

[Scott Douglas]

Like Zeke says, always the best practice.
What does the floor look like where the door will sweep over it when opening/closing?
I've lived in places where the floor wouldn't allow a door to open/close because the floor would hit it 6" out from the wall.

[Dantilla]

Having flipped a few fixer-uppers, it's more important to look correct than be correct.

I've used a few tricks to fool the eye after installing something plumb & level, only to stand back and see it looks odd.
As Zeke said, "...and all the visuals look good".

[p911dad]

Top square, make the adjustment at the bottom of the new door. I have done this a few times, the most exciting one was when in our old Victorian house in NY I was making a new opening for a 1/2 bath in a dead space that was available, these old houses often have odd corners and unused spaces. So I merrily started cutting plaster with my sawzall on my outline for the new door, got a big flash back in the wall and heard my wife yelling from upstairs that the power was out. I had sliced through the hidden electric service to the upstairs (a separate service). I had no idea that line was in there! I had to get an electrician friend to come a run a new line up from the box, no big deal but it was a good lesson to investigate a little more before charging ahead.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Zeke

"I think that having the sides and top level, plumb and square will make the rest of the door frame build/install much easier and better."

Always the best practice. You can cut the bottom of the door with a gap parallel to the floor and all the visuals look good.

And if it makes any difference, should anyone put wallpaper or vertical paneling on the walls, plumb and level is good. I know wallpaper is not in style so much, but back early in my career we saw a lot more of it. Out-of-plumb corners and casing made for one hell of a job.

Thanks. Great point about it potentially impacting anything with vertical lines.

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas

Like Zeke says, always the best practice.
What does the floor look like where the door will sweep over it when opening/closing?
I've lived in places where the floor wouldn't allow a door to open/close because the floor would hit it 6" out from the wall.

We shouldn't have that problem, but I know what you mean. We've got a closet door that only opens about 85ş-90ş because it hits the floor.

Originally Posted by Dantilla

Having flipped a few fixer-uppers, it's more important to look correct than be correct.

I've used a few tricks to fool the eye after installing something plumb & level, only to stand back and see it looks odd.
As Zeke said, "...and all the visuals look good".

Yep, and I may end up having to do some fudging here and there for appearance. The missus would be bugged by a gap at the bottom of a door that was a triangle.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by p911dad

Top square, make the adjustment at the bottom of the new door. I have done this a few times, the most exciting one was when in our old Victorian house in NY I was making a new opening for a 1/2 bath in a dead space that was available, these old houses often have odd corners and unused spaces. So I merrily started cutting plaster with my sawzall on my outline for the new door, got a big flash back in the wall and heard my wife yelling from upstairs that the power was out. I had sliced through the hidden electric service to the upstairs (a separate service). I had no idea that line was in there! I had to get an electrician friend to come a run a new line up from the box, no big deal but it was a good lesson to investigate a little more before charging ahead.

Yikes. I've never done work (several times) that resulted in sparks!

[TimT]

I live in a 100 year old home.. It has a mesh stucco exterior, with plaster lath interior

I gutted room by room insulated, installed efficient windows...

Every time I opened a wall up I though to myself "WTF did you guys do.." regarding who built the house, just odd framing etc...

The 2x4 are actually 2x4..

Every window I installed, I had to scribe and cut jamb extensions


Its always interesting working on old homes

[Steve Carlton]

Measure twice, cut once.

[look 171]

Depending on how out of plumb are the walls. I would plumb it enough and shim everything for the jamb and fit the jamb to the floor only if the floor is way out of level. One a 3'-0" opening (assuming?) the floor shouldn't be that bad, 1/4" out? cut one jamb leg slightly shorter and scribe the door bottom for the eye like Milt suggested. Lever the head jamb and use molding to keep it from moving and don't jamb the head jamb up to the header becasue if header settles more (you know it will) it will push on the head jamb and bind up the door

[Gogar]

Pre-hung door? Throw it in the hole and then make plans?

[Bugsinrugs]

What is the floor covering now? Plan on changing it? If you are changing the flooring and the floor is some what out of level you can use a self leveler and feather it out. Would make it so the door wouldn’t have to be cut at an angle.

[porsche930dude]

Most of these old houses iv worked on the door frames arnt attatched at all. There is usually like 3/4" all the way around and just the trim holds it where its gotta go. Usually much more space at the header like 1.5" I guess to leave them plenty of working space.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by TimT

I live in a 100 year old home..

The 2x4 are actually 2x4.

Its always interesting working on old homes

The difference in the old lumber that the home was made from vs the new stuff is crazy. And in my case, I believe the original occupants, which I suspect were farmers, were the builders. So 1 It's impressive that it's still standing and 2 nothing is at perfectly regular dimensions (ie studs, joists, etc...)

[masraum]

Originally Posted by look 171

Depending on how out of plumb are the walls. I would plumb it enough and shim everything for the jamb and fit the jamb to the floor only if the floor is way out of level. One a 3'-0" opening (assuming?) the floor shouldn't be that bad, 1/4" out? cut one jamb leg slightly shorter and scribe the door bottom for the eye like Milt suggested. Lever the head jamb and use molding to keep it from moving and don't jamb the head jamb up to the header becasue if header settles more (you know it will) it will push on the head jamb and bind up the door

THe floor is probably 5/8" off from level (in this spot).

Originally Posted by Gogar

Pre-hung door? Throw it in the hole and then make plans?

not prehung, making my own frame.

Originally Posted by Bugsinrugs

What is the floor covering now? Plan on changing it? If you are changing the flooring and the floor is some what out of level you can use a self leveler and feather it out. Would make it so the door wouldn’t have to be cut at an angle.

hardwood, no plan to change it. The floor upstairs (which was originally attic space, but was finished out around 1991), is flat like the ocean.

[look 171]

5/8" drop in 3'? that's a lot. Opening is 36" and not smaller? In older homes, door way if often smaller then today's and 36" interior is almost unheard of unless its some grand old house.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by look 171

5/8" drop in 3'? that's a lot. Opening is 36" and not smaller? In older homes, door way if often smaller then today's and 36" interior is almost unheard of unless its some grand old house.

Yep, ~5/8-3/4 and yes, that's over 3'.

This is the upstairs which was unfinished and just attic space originally. The floors upstairs are wavy. Around 1991, some folks bought this place and finished the upstairs adding 2 bedrooms from what had originally been an open T shaped space. They added central HVAC, modern PVC, modern wiring, etc....

The 2 upstairs bedrooms are 8'8" x 11'8" (one is 11'10"). (basically 2 of the 3 dormers (east and south) are now in bedrooms with the 3rd dormer (west) being part of an open central room. Upstairs the doors were 32" (from 1991) but the missus wanted changes, so now the doors are going to be 36" in a French setup.

The downstairs is relatively flat, and most of the doors are (or were originally) 32".

[jyl]

5/8” out of level across the door opening at the floor . . . wow

I am now curious if the bottom of the door will strike the floor as the door is fully opened.

If so, do you have flexibility to change the direction of swing?

(Oh, wait, these will be French doors, then the problem should be only half as much.)

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

5/8” out of level across the door opening at the floor . . . wow

I am now curious if the bottom of the door will strike the floor as the door is fully opened.

If so, do you have flexibility to change the direction of swing?

It's going to be two 18" doors, so not really. But the split should make it a bit less of an issue.

[look 171]

You must be constantly walking up hill or down

Leave 3/4"-1" at the bottom for the "eye". One of the door will rub for sure if you left a 5/8" gap down below which is enough for return air flow.