right to repair

[id10t]

As newer cars become classics and no longer directly supported by the manufacturer, this kinda stuff gets more and more important. Imagine if you will in 2035 trying to get a new engine control computer, etc. for your classic 2000 year model Porsche...

https://yro.slashdot.org/story/23/11/08/2159250/voters-overwhelmingly-pass-car-right-to-repair-law-in-maine

[GH85Carrera]

Yep.

There are many dozens of sophisticated mini computers with software to operate a modern car. In my 1985 El Camino there is a circuit board that runs the windshield wipers, and the delay and washer function. It all fits under the cover of the wiper motor.
It lives in the engine compartment, so a harsh environment. That board is just not available new even though it was used on literally millions of Chevys, GMC, Cadillac, Buick, and across dozens of models from Corvettes, and Grand Nationals. I managed to figure out the problem with mine, with some luck and get it all working. They were never designed to last 38 years and 382,000 miles, but mine does.The used ones I found on EBAY looked worse than mine, and there is no microprocessors or software involved.

Cars are designed to be disposable now. Just scrap them and buy a new one!

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Yep.

There are many dozens of sophisticated mini computers with software to operate a modern car. In my 1985 El Camino there is a circuit board that runs the windshield wipers, and the delay and washer function. It all fits under the cover of the wiper motor.
It lives in the engine compartment, so a harsh environment. That board is just not available new even though it was used on literally millions of Chevys, GMC, Cadillac, Buick, and across dozens of models from Corvettes, and Grand Nationals. I managed to figure out the problem with mine, with some luck and get it all working. They were never designed to last 38 years and 382,000 miles, but mine does.The used ones I found on EBAY looked worse than mine, and there is no microprocessors or software involved.

Cars are designed to be disposable now. Just scrap them and buy a new one!

But without seeing it, I’m guessing someone good with a solder gun could repair it several times over.

It’s started to rear it’s head in my 04 BMW where a ribbon cable was used for the driver’s side mirror. That ribbon cable is part of the network that controls my passenger side mirror. The ribbon cable is broken so I had to pull the fuse for my passenger side mirror or it wants to point itself at the ground which is it’s position for reversing.

[911 Rod]

I think it is John Deere that is connecting to their tractors remotely and not letting the farmers fix their tractors themselves?

[fastfredracing]

There are already parts shortages on vehicles less than 10 years old. The cost and complexity of software/hardware involved in repairing modern vehicles guarantees that there will be non repairable cars or cars that are not financially feaseale to repair down the road .
They have effectively destroyed the future of longterm vehcile ownership.
Signed --grumpy old auto mechanic-

[aschen]

I think this is a noble fight and advocates make as much progress as they can, but I fear disposable cars are already basically here and it will only get worse.

Imagine trying to calibrate the 20 year old safety sensors in 2045 after a minor fender bender, Ive heard it can be a major undertaking to do on a current car with supported tech.

I think hobbyists will find a way for desirable cars, but middle of the road stuff will get scrapped.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Yep.

There are many dozens of sophisticated mini computers with software to operate a modern car.

Right you are. That's one reason I'm not enthusiastic about new cars. I don't understand how they work.
On my old cars I know how every system works and I know when it's not working right. New cars? Nope. I can't tell which little box full of angry pixies is the one with the dead pixies in it.
My 911's Motronic system is about as sophisticated as I want a car to be. Any more complicated and they become appliances, about as interesting to me as my TV - another electronic marvel that is a total mystery to me.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by wilnj

But without seeing it, I’m guessing someone good with a solder gun could repair it several times over.

It’s started to rear it’s head in my 04 BMW where a ribbon cable was used for the driver’s side mirror. That ribbon cable is part of the network that controls my passenger side mirror. The ribbon cable is broken so I had to pull the fuse for my passenger side mirror or it wants to point itself at the ground which is it’s position for reversing.

I am far removed from an electronics wizard. The biggest issue was a component that look funny. I un-soldered and took it to an electronics (remember those) and they found me the same part. I have forgotten what they called it.

Just this week, I replaced the cruise control module. It is hidden up under the dash and I had to play Gumby to get to it, and remove the old one and put in a new one I found on-line for 45 bucks.

One great thing about the G body 911s is the enthusiast market had people that repair the DME itself, and repair the cruise module, and there are new solid state DMEs on the market. That is not likely to happen for a 38 years old Kia or Toyota.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

There are already parts shortages on vehicles less than 10 years old. The cost and complexity of software/hardware involved in repairing modern vehicles guarantees that there will be non repairable cars or cars that are not financially feaseale to repair down the road .
They have effectively destroyed the future of longterm vehcile ownership.
Signed --grumpy old auto mechanic-

for any internal combustion engine car, its relatively easy to wire and configure a computer to make it run.

in the next decade we are going to start seeing "stand alone" style EV controllers too.

its just transistors man, its not magic.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

I think it is John Deere that is connecting to their tractors remotely and not letting the farmers fix their tractors themselves?

Yup, JD has taken some heat over having to have someone "authorize" a repair/part replacement in the field after it has been done before the tractor will go again.

Apple is known for parts-pairing too, and is taking serious heat in Europe for it. Of course, the European courts are what is getting all of us a standard USB-C charging/data port on the next gen iPhones, no way US courts would do something like that to benefit consumers

[id10t]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

for any internal combustion engine car, its relatively easy to wire and configure a computer to make it run.

in the next decade we are going to start seeing "stand alone" style EV controllers too.

its just transistors man, its not magic.

Until the interface/protocols/circuit design are locked up by copyright and patent.... in which case, it could be every man for his own self but posting info/code/plans/schematics might be considered a violation of the DMCA etc.

American IP laws (well, honestly not just American ones) are kinda screwed up....

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by id10t

Until the interface/protocols/circuit design are locked up by copyright and patent.... in which case, it could be every man for his own self but posting info/code/plans/schematics might be considered a violation of the DMCA etc.

American IP laws (well, honestly not just American ones) are kinda screwed up....

fuel injectors and spark plugs dont care about copywrite, they care about voltage.

its not magic.

[2.7RS]

You probably are going to need several degrees

1. Electrical engineering
2. Computer Science
3. Programming and coding
4. Actual auto mechanic training.

And still you may be SOS

[fastfredracing]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

fuel injectors and spark plugs dont care about copywrite, they care about voltage.

its not magic.

But parking brake modules, tranmission modules, hvac modules , lighting , suspension ABS, Steering lock atc,, all care about complicated code and communication with 20+ or more other modules for the vehicle to be able to function .

[911 Rod]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

But parking brake modules, tranmission modules, hvac modules , lighting , suspension ABS, Steering lock atc,, all care about complicated code and communication with 20+ or more other modules for the vehicle to be able to function .

Most guys can't figure out why there is a parasitic drain from the door switch on their aircooled never mind all this stuff!

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

But parking brake modules, tranmission modules, hvac modules , lighting , suspension ABS, Steering lock atc,, all care about complicated code and communication with 20+ or more other modules for the vehicle to be able to function .

no one is stand-aloning a car for the HVAC controls.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

Most guys can't figure out why there is a parasitic drain from the door switch on their aircooled never mind all this stuff!

+1 When I was able to do this I thought I was Batman.

Is the John Deere "control" covered by the Massachusetts and Maine vote for right to repair? I read it's not law yet but if and when, will it include non-transportation "stuff".

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Is the John Deere "control" covered by the Massachusetts and Maine vote for right to repair? I read it's not law yet but if and when, will it include non-transportation "stuff".

As I understand it, you can’t even begin to diagnose JD equipment without the proprietary software. It’s bad enough when it’s your 2023 Honda in your driveway. It’s altogether different when it’s a combine in the middle of a field 250 miles from the service center and you’re in the middle of a harvest.

[JackDidley]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

But parking brake modules, tranmission modules, hvac modules , lighting , suspension ABS, Steering lock atc,, all care about complicated code and communication with 20+ or more other modules for the vehicle to be able to function .

Sooo true. That button on the dash may have to send a signal to an antenna that sends a signal to the ecm in order for the car to start after it sees the fob in your pocket.. another signal to the body module to open a door. Its not just spark and fuel anymore.

[Zeke]

Yeah the John Deere thing became huge in the courts. There was some compromise.

CA just signed a right to repair law this week. IDK what the depth of the law is but it is a step in the right direction and from CA no less!