Replacing My Main Panel

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

Minimum of 6’.

For over 20 years, every house I’ve built has had a disconnect at the meter can. Would the meter still need to be removed if you can lock out tag out the disconnect?

Most homes have the 2 phases of Line power disconnected by the rated panel main Circuit Breaker AFTER the meter socket.
Unless you physically disconnect the feed @ the Weather Head, the Meter socket will remain hot in most homes.

Common practice in the trade is to ask the guy holding two hot utility lines in his hands; what time it is?

Performing a "Hot Tap" with split nuts or a crimper is not for those without the knowledge, skills or equipment.

[dad911]

Some of your decision will depend on the generator panel/transfer switch.

[Rusty Heap]

Can you simply double up some circuits using 1/2 height breaker?

https://www.amazon.com/SQUARE-HOMT1515-HOMELINE-CIRCUIT-BREAKER/dp/B00A2BK9Z8/ref=asc_df_B00A2BK9Z8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241986552631&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10736225464221841550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033391&hvtargid=pla-487047467968&psc=1&mcid=e0828de6044b33d896b7c4e93d0a3657&gclid=Cj0KCQiAhc-sBhCEARIsAOVwHuTPXZuHIovj6gFR7lPnsbfWu_zYDwvuXMFuI 4inY8iht7Dk5lPHX7oaAiQPEALw_wcB

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Common practice in the trade is to ask the guy holding two hot utility lines in his hands; what time it is?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Most homes have the 2 phases of Line power disconnected by the rated panel main Circuit Breaker AFTER the meter socket.
Unless you physically disconnect the feed @ the Weather Head, the Meter socket will remain hot in most homes.

Common practice in the trade is to ask the guy holding two hot utility lines in his hands; what time it is?

Performing a "Hot Tap" with split nuts or a crimper is not for those without the knowledge, skills or equipment.

It's a split phase, not 2, but that will get you by when comparing to 3 phase. In Europe they have 230v single phase. We get 240 volts by instead of sending the 120v to ground we connect them together through the load. It derived from a single phase high voltage transformed into 2 taps in the transformer 180º apart as alternating current.

True, I wouldn't want anyone to fool with unprotected line feed not knowing what potential is. And pulling a meter when the panel is under load can be a bad idea. Like placing your laptop power supply in a receptacle will arc a little, the meter can arc a lot.

To answer the question about upgrades affecting wiring beyond the proposed new work, generally speaking if it it not touched it can remain. However, it you moe circuits over to a new sub then whatever code you are under applies. Since 2020 AFCI breakers are required on all receptacles in the house except the kitchen that has GFCI protection. The 2023 code requires both in kitchens, laundry and bath as well as outdoors.

Here is the code status for the U.S.

NEC 2023 adoption is complete in Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota and Wyoming.
NEC 2023 adoption is underway and NEC 2020 adoption is complete in North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas and Washington.
NEC 2020 adoption is complete in Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont and West Virginia.
NEC 2020 adoption is underway in Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, New Mexico, Ohio, Tennessee and Virginia.
NEC 2017 is adopted in Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.
NEC regulation occurs only at the county/municipal level in Alabama, Arizona, Illinois, Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri and Nebraska.

The bolded wording is a problem.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Rusty Heap

Can you simply double up some circuits using 1/2 height breaker?

https://www.amazon.com/SQUARE-HOMT1515-HOMELINE-CIRCUIT-BREAKER/dp/B00A2BK9Z8/ref=asc_df_B00A2BK9Z8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241986552631&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10736225464221841550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033391&hvtargid=pla-487047467968&psc=1&mcid=e0828de6044b33d896b7c4e93d0a3657&gclid=Cj0KCQiAhc-sBhCEARIsAOVwHuTPXZuHIovj6gFR7lPnsbfWu_zYDwvuXMFuI 4inY8iht7Dk5lPHX7oaAiQPEALw_wcB

Another thing you might be able to do- check your local codes, is to wire nut several of the circuits that don’t have much on them together and run one wire to a single breaker. That might allow you to free up enough space for your additions. My local inspector told me that it was perfectly fine to do just that.

[ben parrish]

Originally Posted by jcommin

My youngest lives in Virginia. He bought a row house built in 1910. The electrical is the house is a mash-up of knob/tube, Romex and conduit. I consulted two friends of mine: one is a general contractor, and the other is an Electrical contractor. I sent them a photo of the panel ( see attached). There are a minimum of 6 violations in that panel. With, their wisdom, I created a Statement of Work and got 2 quotes.

Replacing a panel is a money maker for a contractor but it needs to be done right and compliant. In Virgina, this work requires a permit and inspection. I live in Chicago and those conditions are the same.

I wouldn't mess with it.

What a mess! That person should be shot for being an idiot..your son made the right call!,
. When I built my detached garage, I wired everything myself, ran the “sub panel” feed underground and up into the house to a 100 amp breaker inside the main box….but I hired an electrician to come and check everything and “sign off”. When the county inspector came for the sign off on electrical, I realized I had already insulated everything, hiding the wire runs. When he got there I asked him if I needed to pull the insulation off so he could inspect the runs. As he was standing at the box looking at the wires and connections, he turned to me and asked who pulled the wire and wired the panel. I told him I had and he remarked that he rarely sees such an organized installation and if I took that much care in wiring the box he didn’t need to see each run to the outlets… the electrician asked me if I wanted to go to work with him…I politely declined.
Electrical is easy but needs extreme attention to detail and healthy respect. I enjoy the work and love knowing it is done correctly when I walk away from it.
Now, wiring a 4 way switch will mess with your mind��

[ben parrish]

Originally Posted by rwest

Another thing you might be able to do- check your local codes, is to wire nut several of the circuits that don’t have much on them together and run one wire to a single breaker. That might allow you to free up enough space for your additions. My local inspector told me that it was perfectly fine to do just that.

Yes, you can do that but the connections must be inside a sealed box that is accessible…as in not covered by Sheetrock. I remodeled a master bath and moved outlets around. I didn’t want to run another 50’ home run to the panel so I added a few junction boxes in the attic and mounted then about 4’ up on truss supports so when I blew in the 30” of insulation, the junction boxes were still accessible…god I hope I never have to go back up there and wade through that loose blown insulation.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by ben parrish

Yes, you can do that but the connections must be inside a sealed box that is accessible…as in not covered by Sheetrock. I remodeled a master bath and moved outlets around. I didn’t want to run another 50’ home run to the panel so I added a few junction boxes in the attic and mounted then about 4’ up on truss supports so when I blew in the 30” of insulation, the junction boxes were still accessible…god I hope I never have to go back up there and wade through that loose blown insulation.

I just did them right in the main panel- no extra boxes or messing about, just take the two wires off of the two breakers(or more if they are really lightly loaded), wire nut the two(or more) with a length of new wire going to just one breaker.

[ben parrish]

Yes, in the box is sealed but accessible. I needed them over 40’ away from the panel and didn’t want to run a new home run of 12/2 wire to the panel. I run everything in 12/2 except 14/3 wire for fans or 3 way switches…cost a little more but I’m not worried about running a 20amp breaker on it…that breaker is there to protect the wire, not the outlet or what’s plugged into the outlet.

[john70t]

All those codes and specifications are there for a reason.
(just sayin')

Document everything, and get advise, but get it signed off by someone with proven knowledge and insurance.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by jcommin

Let's have a contest. How many violations can you count? I'll enter my answer later. And you probably can't see some so neither can I. But I'll start with the nutted bare ground wires.

[ben parrish]

Where is the main breaker???

Wires under main lugs feeding god knows what…I assume a sub panel..way undersized wire to feed a sub. Looks like 10/2 wire…which means the sub is not grounded properly and certainly not wired properly…subs need to be on their own breaker..that wire(30 amp rated) is carrying 240 volts/100 amps and passing through the side of the panel with no protection!!! WTF

Multiple Neutrals on buss bar under same lug.

Red/usually secondary hot wire tied into neutral wires with wire nut leading to??

No wire clamp/sheath connector used in top of panel with too many wires sharing the hole.

Jumper wire on left side between 220 and 110 breaker

No second wire on second from bottom right side 220 breaker..assume it’s running a 110 outlet.

I don’t see a ground entering the panel..large, bare copper wire…which means the panel is not grounded nor the rest of the house.

I swear, I’d be afraid to touch that panel for fear of being electrocuted. Hell, I wouldn’t change an outlet it that house for fear of being electruted.

[Zeke]

Actually you can land more than one neutral per screw but not grounds or EGC.
Yeah, the GEC (or grounding electrode system) seems to be non existent

But you're better than I because I can't locate the bus.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Actually you can land more than one neutral per screw but not grounds or EGC.
Yeah, the GEC (or grounding electrode system) seems to be non existent

But you're better than I because I can't locate the bus.

Zeke, Ben, This the worst looking panel I have ever seen. I almost threw up when I opened this.

The wire size for the washer dryer circuit is undersized. - been replaced.
There is also a line tapped off that bi-passed a braker.

It has all been cleaned up. But the upstairs is all Knob/tube and will need replacing. The dining room on the first floor is Knob/Tube as well. I created another SOW and getting quotes for the remaining work.

[ben parrish]

Didn’t mean to be critical…that thing was scary. Obvious that it was a conglomeration of a little knowledge, less skill and no sense of safety. Glad you are getting it cleaned up.

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Most homes have the 2 phases of Line power disconnected by the rated panel main Circuit Breaker AFTER the meter socket.
Unless you physically disconnect the feed @ the Weather Head, the Meter socket will remain hot in most homes...

If the disconnect is between the meter and the panel, can’t you lock out tag out the disconnect and then not have to remove the meter?

On our homes, the meter can and a disconnect are side-by-side on the outside of the house. If there’s an emergency, the power company/police/fire department can turn the power off to the house at the exterior disconnect.

If you’re inside the house, you can flip the disconnect in the panel.

That’s it for me. I’m just exhausted my lack of knowledge of electrical systems.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by ben parrish

Didn’t mean to be critical…that thing was scary. Obvious that it was a conglomeration of a little knowledge, less skill and no sense of safety. Glad you are getting it cleaned up.

No It all there just behind a lot of lazy, I mean wires. Milt, the buzz bar is there somewhere I am sure of that. You guys have no idea how many times we go in for a major remodel and see this kind of work. Why cut the wire to the correct length, bend it to make thing clean? After all, it isn't their house and many inspector don't care too much if its clean or not so they just shove it all in there. Oh yeah, we have our fair share of cleaning up many of these types of mess.

[jyl]

Jeez. Even I know you are supposed to have a tidy panel with parallel wires all easily traced at a glance.

[911 Rod]

The scary part is whoever did this had some knowledge and really didn't care.