Replacing My Main Panel
 

To the electrical pros and DIYers:

I need a larger panel. I’ve done a fair bit of electrical at home, up to installing subpanels, new circuits in the house, and wiring my garage. I am thinking that if the new panel is in the same location as the existing, and even the same brand (SquareD Homeline), but just more spaces, then replacing the panel should be straightforward . . .

No / Yes?

I'm like you. I've done a bunch of electrical work in a couple of homes. But I think I'd leave new panel installation to the pros.

I think you need to pop the meter off too make sure that there's no power, and I think you technically need a permit to do it.

Yes,

Shouldn’t be too difficult, but probably very time consuming and you will need to have power off to the service which means involving the power company and working in the dark.

Lots of things that could be done wrong. So you would need to label everything well and double check that you wire it correctly.

Do you have the room to add a sub panel?

Yes it is pretty straight forward. If like up here will need service suppler to turn off main power, and will need a permit and inspection prior to turning power back on.

How many amps is the existing panel? The wires need to be changed out from the pole, existing wires may be too small for the larger amp panel. If coming from the roof, you need to go up there and jump it hot. No ways around it. Once the install is complete, call the elec. company and they will come and finalize the connection point (where you made temp connection) and install meter. You must get a permit for this. Call your elec co. they will send out a spotter and he will locate the exact location of the new panel, in writing. The rest is pretty easy ans straight forward.

I had my main panel upgraded several years ago. I would spring for the cost to have it professionally done. You do need a permit, at least in my state, and the power company has to come out and shut the power off for the panel to be changed and reconnect the power after it's done. For those reasons, I'd just pay to have it professionally done in case I ran into an unanticipated snag.

If you did it yourself and anything were to happen in future your insurance company will hang it on you. Or when you go to sell the house and the inspector sees a new panel and askes to see the permit and final inspection. Not good.

I was asked for a fence permit when I sold my house. I knew my city required a permit so I had one. Lenders are all about documenting risk.

SDG&E may do that but SoCal Edison is lax. They do spot the meter but the electrical contractor usually cuts the mains and ties off the service drop while doing the work. I have seen EC's reconnect after finishing and the inspector arrives the next day or so to sign off. Next door to me on a service upgrade, SCE never came out other than spotting. The split nuts wrapped in tape are still in place rather than the official SCE crimps.

AFA doing it yourself, planning and planning is very important. It's a lot of work and there's room for one person to make up that panel. You can use a 2nd to extend the mast if necessary and pull in the SEC (service entrance cable) and also drive in the ground rods and do the bonding to water and gas.

You are allowed to go hot if everything is in order before the inspector. But the POCO won't hook you up that day unless you are really well coordinated and if you fail, you get no juice unless you jumper it.

Article 250
Two new ground rods @ appropriate distance apart
Both cold water sides of the water heater bonded around flex hoses with #10 bare copper ground wire.
All subject to inspectors discretion you'll never get unless your hire a bonded electrical contractor and get a permit

Utility will probably want to upgrade your Neutral.

Thanks!

Electricians have refused to replace my main panel or do any work involving it, because said panel is in a location that, they say, is no longer legal. The illegality is that my laundry sink is in the 30” work zone around the panel. Why this was permitted when the house was rewired in 2000 I don’t know, but possibly the laundry sink was added later. I am planning to move the sink over a few feet, and then will call an electrician to see what they’ll want to replace the panel then. I don’t need to upsize the amps (it is a 200A panel), but it was out of open breaker spots pretty much immediately upon installation. I needed a few more circuits, so I added a subpanel nearby (in addition to a subpanel in the garage when I rewired that). But I’m planning to add two mini-splits and a generator transfer switch this year, and it feels better to get a new main panel with more spots rather than keep adding to the subpanel.

You can have as many subs as you wish as long as you don't exceed the load capacity of the main.

In fact you may want to do that now that AFCI breakers are required for just about the whole house.

If you ran out or room with a 200 amp panel, either you have a huge house or are running a server farm. Or you have a huge shop. You may want to consolidate a few circuits. 4 bedroom houses don't need more than 4 light circuits (generally speaking, of course).

Will any of the other electrical service components have to be updated to meet any new NEC codes with the panel change?

Minimum of 6’.

For over 20 years, every house I’ve built has had a disconnect at the meter can. Would the meter still need to be removed if you can lock out tag out the disconnect?

When the house was rewired, whoever did it was profligate with circuits. For example, just the basement lights and outlets are spread over four or five breakers. And of course there are 240v circuits that take up two slots each, and I added a few more (each subpanel, electric dryer, dishwasher, espresso machine all each needed a 240v circuit). The mini splits will need two more 240v circuits. So yes, my panel is full, even using half-height breakers (two circuits in one slot), even though I have gas range, gas water heater, etc. As a result, the circuits I want to pull into the transfer switch are spread over the main panel and the nearby subpanel. It’s just messy and I want to have things consolidated and better organized.

But if it will cost too much, I’ll make do.

I recently purchased a Honda EU7000is portable generator and installed a 30A 120/240 generator outlet on the exterior of my house. I needed to install the 30A 2 pole CB in the top 2 right hand spaces in order to install a main/generator CB interlock. I was pretty much out of spaces and didn't want to install any additional tandem breakers, so I picked up a 200A panel w/o main breaker and fed it from a 100A breaker in the main panel.

You do need to isolate the neutrals in the sub panel.

Now I've got plenty of room for expansion.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1704203831.jpg

Who disconnects the power in your area? Are you allowed to pull the meter off to do it?

Is a permit required, and if so, is the homeowner allowed to do the work?

I suspect when you go down this rabbit hole, you will find that you need a qualified electrician to comply.

Otherwise, go for it. It's not rocket science.

^ This.

Unless you're out in the woods, I bet a permit pulled by a licensed electrician is required, at least that's the way it is in Houston when I had my panel replaced. (In Houston the home owner can pull permits for construction and plumbing but not electrical)

When I did mine, the utility removed the meter, the electrician did the change over, then the utility guys came back and put the meter back on. Took a few hours total.

My youngest lives in Virginia. He bought a row house built in 1910. The electrical is the house is a mash-up of knob/tube, Romex and conduit. I consulted two friends of mine: one is a general contractor, and the other is an Electrical contractor. I sent them a photo of the panel ( see attached). There are a minimum of 6 violations in that panel. With, their wisdom, I created a Statement of Work and got 2 quotes.

Replacing a panel is a money maker for a contractor but it needs to be done right and compliant. In Virgina, this work requires a permit and inspection. I live in Chicago and those conditions are the same.

I wouldn't mess with it. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1704208108.jpg

Should he go with a plug-on-neutral type panel?

or QO vs. Homeline

Most homes have the 2 phases of Line power disconnected by the rated panel main Circuit Breaker AFTER the meter socket.
Unless you physically disconnect the feed @ the Weather Head, the Meter socket will remain hot in most homes.

Common practice in the trade is to ask the guy holding two hot utility lines in his hands; what time it is?

Performing a "Hot Tap" with split nuts or a crimper is not for those without the knowledge, skills or equipment.

Some of your decision will depend on the generator panel/transfer switch.

Can you simply double up some circuits using 1/2 height breaker?

https://www.amazon.com/SQUARE-HOMT1515-HOMELINE-CIRCUIT-BREAKER/dp/B00A2BK9Z8/ref=asc_df_B00A2BK9Z8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241986552631&hvpos=&hvnetw= g&hvrand=10736225464221841550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqm t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033391&hv targid=pla-487047467968&psc=1&mcid=e0828de6044b33d896b7c4e93d 0a3657&gclid=Cj0KCQiAhc-sBhCEARIsAOVwHuTPXZuHIovj6gFR7lPnsbfWu_zYDwvuXMFuI 4inY8iht7Dk5lPHX7oaAiQPEALw_wcB

:)

It's a split phase, not 2, but that will get you by when comparing to 3 phase. In Europe they have 230v single phase. We get 240 volts by instead of sending the 120v to ground we connect them together through the load. It derived from a single phase high voltage transformed into 2 taps in the transformer 180º apart as alternating current.

True, I wouldn't want anyone to fool with unprotected line feed not knowing what potential is. And pulling a meter when the panel is under load can be a bad idea. Like placing your laptop power supply in a receptacle will arc a little, the meter can arc a lot.

To answer the question about upgrades affecting wiring beyond the proposed new work, generally speaking if it it not touched it can remain. However, it you moe circuits over to a new sub then whatever code you are under applies. Since 2020 AFCI breakers are required on all receptacles in the house except the kitchen that has GFCI protection. The 2023 code requires both in kitchens, laundry and bath as well as outdoors.

Here is the code status for the U.S.

NEC 2023 adoption is complete in Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota and Wyoming.
NEC 2023 adoption is underway and NEC 2020 adoption is complete in North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas and Washington.
NEC 2020 adoption is complete in Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont and West Virginia.
NEC 2020 adoption is underway in Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, New Mexico, Ohio, Tennessee and Virginia.
NEC 2017 is adopted in Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.
NEC regulation occurs only at the county/municipal level in Alabama, Arizona, Illinois, Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri and Nebraska.

The bolded wording is a problem.

Another thing you might be able to do- check your local codes, is to wire nut several of the circuits that don’t have much on them together and run one wire to a single breaker. That might allow you to free up enough space for your additions. My local inspector told me that it was perfectly fine to do just that.

What a mess! That person should be shot for being an idiot..your son made the right call!,
. When I built my detached garage, I wired everything myself, ran the “sub panel” feed underground and up into the house to a 100 amp breaker inside the main box….but I hired an electrician to come and check everything and “sign off”. When the county inspector came for the sign off on electrical, I realized I had already insulated everything, hiding the wire runs. When he got there I asked him if I needed to pull the insulation off so he could inspect the runs. As he was standing at the box looking at the wires and connections, he turned to me and asked who pulled the wire and wired the panel. I told him I had and he remarked that he rarely sees such an organized installation and if I took that much care in wiring the box he didn’t need to see each run to the outlets… the electrician asked me if I wanted to go to work with him…I politely declined.
Electrical is easy but needs extreme attention to detail and healthy respect. I enjoy the work and love knowing it is done correctly when I walk away from it.
Now, wiring a 4 way switch will mess with your mind��

Yes, you can do that but the connections must be inside a sealed box that is accessible…as in not covered by Sheetrock. I remodeled a master bath and moved outlets around. I didn’t want to run another 50’ home run to the panel so I added a few junction boxes in the attic and mounted then about 4’ up on truss supports so when I blew in the 30” of insulation, the junction boxes were still accessible…god I hope I never have to go back up there and wade through that loose blown insulation.

I just did them right in the main panel- no extra boxes or messing about, just take the two wires off of the two breakers(or more if they are really lightly loaded), wire nut the two(or more) with a length of new wire going to just one breaker.

Yes, in the box is sealed but accessible. I needed them over 40’ away from the panel and didn’t want to run a new home run of 12/2 wire to the panel. I run everything in 12/2 except 14/3 wire for fans or 3 way switches…cost a little more but I’m not worried about running a 20amp breaker on it…that breaker is there to protect the wire, not the outlet or what’s plugged into the outlet.

All those codes and specifications are there for a reason.
(just sayin')

Document everything, and get advise, but get it signed off by someone with proven knowledge and insurance.

Let's have a contest. How many violations can you count? I'll enter my answer later. And you probably can't see some so neither can I. But I'll start with the nutted bare ground wires.

Where is the main breaker???

Wires under main lugs feeding god knows what…I assume a sub panel..way undersized wire to feed a sub. Looks like 10/2 wire…which means the sub is not grounded properly and certainly not wired properly…subs need to be on their own breaker..that wire(30 amp rated) is carrying 240 volts/100 amps and passing through the side of the panel with no protection!!! WTF

Multiple Neutrals on buss bar under same lug.

Red/usually secondary hot wire tied into neutral wires with wire nut leading to??

No wire clamp/sheath connector used in top of panel with too many wires sharing the hole.

Jumper wire on left side between 220 and 110 breaker

No second wire on second from bottom right side 220 breaker..assume it’s running a 110 outlet.

I don’t see a ground entering the panel..large, bare copper wire…which means the panel is not grounded nor the rest of the house.

I swear, I’d be afraid to touch that panel for fear of being electrocuted. Hell, I wouldn’t change an outlet it that house for fear of being electruted.

Actually you can land more than one neutral per screw but not grounds or EGC.
Yeah, the GEC (or grounding electrode system) seems to be non existent

But you're better than I because I can't locate the bus.

Zeke, Ben, This the worst looking panel I have ever seen. I almost threw up when I opened this.

The wire size for the washer dryer circuit is undersized. - been replaced.
There is also a line tapped off that bi-passed a braker.

It has all been cleaned up. But the upstairs is all Knob/tube and will need replacing. The dining room on the first floor is Knob/Tube as well. I created another SOW and getting quotes for the remaining work.

Didn’t mean to be critical…that thing was scary. Obvious that it was a conglomeration of a little knowledge, less skill and no sense of safety. Glad you are getting it cleaned up.

If the disconnect is between the meter and the panel, can’t you lock out tag out the disconnect and then not have to remove the meter?

On our homes, the meter can and a disconnect are side-by-side on the outside of the house. If there’s an emergency, the power company/police/fire department can turn the power off to the house at the exterior disconnect.

If you’re inside the house, you can flip the disconnect in the panel.

That’s it for me. I’m just exhausted my lack of knowledge of electrical systems.

No It all there just behind a lot of lazy, I mean wires. Milt, the buzz bar is there somewhere I am sure of that.:rolleyes: You guys have no idea how many times we go in for a major remodel and see this kind of work. Why cut the wire to the correct length, bend it to make thing clean? After all, it isn't their house and many inspector don't care too much if its clean or not so they just shove it all in there. Oh yeah, we have our fair share of cleaning up many of these types of mess.

Jeez. Even I know you are supposed to have a tidy panel with parallel wires all easily traced at a glance.

The scary part is whoever did this had some knowledge and really didn't care.