Road cyclists: titanium vs. steel frames

[dd74]

Later this year, I plan to replace my Colnago road bike. It has served me well over the last twenty years, but finally seems to be giving up the ghost.

I'm a diehard steel fan, but have been considering titanium. I don't like carbon fiber (which I also have), because it flexes when sprinting and climbing (at least with me it does). Aluminum falls in the carbon category for me as well.

So I wanted a consensus from the cycling community on the BBS: what are your feelings about steel frames or titanium? Which would you choose over the other, and why?

I plan to have the frame built to my measurements, so, in a sense, all things regarding Ti vs. steel will be equal in geometrical proportions.

Here's who I am considering for the work:

http://sevencycles.com/bikemodls.html

Any advice would help.

Thanks.

[BGCarrera32]

Well...hello again.

I've put a few thousand miles on both...more than I care to admit...as a Cat 3 road cyclist. I've had 3 Columbus equipped frames; 2 out of SLX (old tech) and 1 out of EL (flexy). My most recent frame was a Litespeed Ti made from 6Al 2.5V, which was swaged and butted. I also own a Cannondale 2.0 aluminum for velodrome use. Currently I ride an old Bianchi with SLX.

My thumbs go up to the Ti if you can swing it cost wise. Yeah, "unobtanium" is more exotic, can be poilshed, etc, but Ti has inherent road dampening and shock absorbing properties that make it for me. I was always happy with the Litespeed, but sold it because the gemoetry was just a little off for me. They are light in weight of course, but also very strong. It always seemed like the Ti was snappier (less flex across the length of the bike) for me when I got on it in a sprint.

Tough to compare apples to apples in reality tho. If everything is as close to identical as possible, go Ti. But if the steel frame is stiffened and butted in the right places, has swaged rear seat stays, an exotic downtube...and the Ti is the basic frame design, might be a toss up. You almost need to compare with the same set of wheels too which is tough to do. Anyone at the shop that says "oh yeah you'll feel better on the Ti right away" is full of crap. It takes many miles and dialed in bike fit to make an objective opinion about it.

You could always start with a Ti frame, go say Campy Chorus (last years Record group usually) and hold the cost down to upgrade later. Nothin' beats a polished Ti frame either for appearance IMO...

Good luck-
BG

[dd74]

Thanks, BG: I'll take what you say into consideration. Yes, the price jump between Ti and Steel is at least $1K. And for that, I definitely want something that doesn't give under load. It was a real drag when I sensed this on my carbon bike.

Dean bicycles makes some nice Ti frames, but I'm not entirely sure they're custom built.

What's your experience with Dura Ace? Everything I have is Record, but "old Record."

[JavaBrewer]

Man its been a few years (and a few more pounds) since I was road racing but I preferred Dura Ace over Record mainly because it was a clean functional design that equaled or exceeded the performance of Campy for way less money. Remember amateur racers spend too much time training to be actually holding down jobs that pay money! I never developed an attraction to the Campy look, especially those crank arms, and went strictly for function. My first Dura Ace groupo was a 7 speed hub (13-21) on a 56cm Land Shark frame. Very stiff...too stiff for training, beat me to death, but very responsive in a crit. I raced Cat 3 for 2 years with that setup - heck was beating on the door of Cat 2 but then my future wife entered the picture

I always wished I could justify the $$$$ for a TI frame but life played out differently...I got my 911 though! I still ride from time to time on my old Trek 2300. The rear triangle and forks are aluminum and the rest is carbon - stiff enough for climbing and sprinting but still compliant to absorb the long day bumps. Nothing fancy for sure...very retro in today's pack, but for my needs serves me well.

To answer your question - money no object I would go TI otherwise the money saved could be applied to some killer wheel combinations.

[BGCarrera32]

Well...let's see...

The Litespeed I had ran DA 9spd (the most recent stuff) which is a pretty bulletproof groupset. I think the constant improvements of the Shimano line over the last 10 years or so has really forced some improvement and innovation on the part of Campy. The current Campy Record offers a 10 spd cog and carbon fiber brake levers. Both unnecessary in my opinion, but I do like the shape of the campy brake lever hood area better when your hands are on them. Shifting in a sprint or hairy situation on Dura Ace I always found a little tricky because of the way the WHOLE lever pivots inward to make a shift. The Campy setup to go to a harder gear requires you just squeeze your thumb down to make the shift. I currently have a mix of the older Campy Record ergopower on my Bianchi, and its hit or miss. Awesome brakes, o.k. shifting, crappy rear axle that comes loose from a silly pressed on race design. But those parts are 5-10 years old, and lots of miles.

FYI, DA is around $950 for the grouppo, Record is around $1350 (both mail order).

dd74, are you a big guy? You seem concerned with flex. If you're 200+ lbs, really strong, or especially tall, you might want to find a fatter tubeset. At some point flex can be reduced just using bigger tube cross sections, because the resulting joints have more real estate for the welds. The old Cannondale aluminum 3.2 "boneshaker" frames didn't flex for beans...those were all business, and destroyed a lot of wheels too because they didn't give at all...

I've also got married, gained 30 lbs., bought a 911. Ride twice a week now...

[dd74]

BG: I'm actually not a big guy. 5-6 or so, and 160#. But my sprint tactics are balls out. I've cracked a Scapin steel frame to useless junk, and ruined a fair share of cranks. I have an old PY10FC Peugeot (carbon fiber), which is just crap. It's more flexy than a prom date wondering if she should or shouldn't...if you know what I mean.

That's why the Ti or steel thing. Colnagos are like tanks, but as I've gotten older, I see the need for a custom build that is appropriate with one's orthopedics (if that's a valid word or term).

My philosophy on cost is a little different than just "cost." To me, a cheaper bike that isn't built to suit the rider, could cause more harm than good. Whether a harsh ride or ill-fitting, imagine the damage something like that can do after 50 miles of hard riding?

We talk about detonation in Porsche engines. To me, bad bikes is like detonation occurring in one's own body.

BTW: I once had an old DA rear derailler (sp? I know it's spelled wrong). I blew that thing apart racing around the hills at UCLA. Lasted me two months.

[island911]

I'll just throw out some engineering/materials perspective.

Carbon-Fiber can provide the highest stiffness per weight.
Steel can provide the highest strength per weight. (you could bend it in half and it still won't break)
Ti, and Al, will give some great yield-strength per weight. (and corrosion resistance)

The BIG player, in frame stiffness, comes from the geometry of the frame and tubes.

So, for example, if a CF frame is too bouncey, the designer was likely set on making the bike hyper-light, and didn't give the enough though to the structure . . . and with CF frame manufacturing methods, the best structure can be tough to get. (as with other materials)

[dd74]

Good point, Dr. Very good point.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by dd74
BG: I'm actually not a big guy. 5-6 or so, and 160#. But my sprint tactics are balls out. I've cracked a Scapin steel frame to useless junk, and ruined a fair share of cranks.

Wow that sounds excessive! I was a 165# sprinter and only saw one DA crank fail (cracked but did not separate) in 2 years of racing. What length cranks are you pushing? That Scapin frame could have already been cracked or fatiqued before your legs finished the job. Not trying to sound cricital but the Cat 1 - Pro's that I used to train with never saw the failure rates you're quoting. Maybe a string of bad luck for you?

BTW: I once had an old DA rear derailler (sp? I know it's spelled wrong). I blew that thing apart racing around the hills at UCLA. Lasted me two months.

Again most of the U.S. pro's were earning a living on DA so probably just bad luck that day. Either way I don't think you could go wrong with any of the high-end groupo's out these days.

Man all this talk about bikes makes me want to go out for a spin today.

[BGCarrera32]

Man all this talk about bikes makes me want to go out for a spin today.

Yeah, me too. Right after I finish this cream soda...

[nostatic]

I've owned most of the Ti frames...the number one choice without hesitation is:

http://www.moots.com

I would take this over a Seven, Litespeed, or any other in a heartbeat. I should have never sold my VaMoots (still have my YBBeat though).

I love steel and Ti, but if you've got the budget, I'd go with a Moots. I don't like Al because it can't be easily repaired, and tends to be stiff and harsh (that depends on the builder though...I would never call a Vitus stiff). CF doesn't send me...the frames I've ridden have felt dead, and I think Ti/steel are tougher in the bike world (ie to percusive injury).

That being said, a nice Rivendell lugged steel frame is a work of art. But so is Moots:

http://bender.annenberg.edu/tar/psychlo/psychlo.html

[nostatic]

and more bikes:

http://bender.annenberg.edu/tar/bicycles.html

Best road racing bike I had was a Davidson Stilletto...lugged Prestige steel with 75 degree head angle. Crit bike all the way, but amazingly stable at speed...had some great runs up and down Mt. Tam and in the Angeles.

The VaMoots was like flying though...used a AlphaQ carbon/ti fork up front...amazing.

[dd74]

Thanks, Todd. I was hoping this thread would attract your attention.

Oh and David, yes, it was a string of bad luck. But the Scapin and the rear derail happened.

[nostatic]

I've had good luck with DA stuff, but when I raced I used Ultegra because DA was too expensive (and ***** happens). I hate STI though, and back when I raced cat3 used downtube shifter for the front derailleur, barcon for the rear. These days I use barcons for both. I had Campy Chorus 9spd on the Moots, and it was beautiful, but I really don't like using the brake levers to shift (although I like ergo better than sti). I'm cranky old school that way. Plus I've always used a smattering of parts. My current road build (once I find a cheap/good used steel frame) is:

Ritchey Logic road cranks
DA rear, Ultegra front derailleur
old 105 single pivot or newer Ultegra dual pivot brakes
Moots layback post and WTB Ti rail saddle
Nitto "Perfect" 46cm bar
stem unknown (depends on the frame)
Suntour xc9000/ma-2/butted front
Ultegra/ma-2/butted rear

Not exactly the lightest wheels around, but the xc9000 hub is as good as a Phils, the MA2s bombproof (potholes), and I can run Conti 700x28s. I like fatter tires. Getting old

My claim to breaking things fame was on my Super Mondia commuter. I rode it into the lab most every day in grad school, and it had a Phils bottom bracket. One day I jumped when the stoplight changed, got about 2 or 3 cranks in and my feet went flying...almost crashed. I snapped the spindle. The shop had *never* seen a snapped Phils spindle.

[dd74]

Todd - that's a riot! Remember building wooden jumps for our BMX bikes? I broke a couple frames that way, too. Also learned how to weld 'em back together.

How tall are you? I might be selling my Colnago if I do get a new ride.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by dd74
My philosophy on cost is a little different than just "cost." To me, a cheaper bike that isn't built to suit the rider, could cause more harm than good. Whether a harsh ride or ill-fitting, imagine the damage something like that can do after 50 miles of hard riding?

I dunno. I bought an old-school Trek 2300 off Ebay last year, and I now ride 17-25 miles 6 days a week(1 hr per day is about all I can extract out of my workday). If I don't ride the bike, I get flabby and out of shape. I'd love to have a custom bike, but for riding and having fun, I cannot justify the cost.

I upgraded to Record Ergo levers and 10 spd conversion cassette on a set of Dura Ace/CXP 33 wheels, and the bike rides great. I could really care less about how the bike feels, because I don't know any better. If the bumps hurt, then I need a harder butt, eh?

My uneducated vote is for Ti, because it provides the image of being indestructible. For now, I'll just live with my carbon frame, aluminum lug 25 lb. behemoth.

Jurgen

[andrewgoh]

I can't really attest to the merits of steel versus titanium as I have never rideen a titianium. However, I have always been a fan of steel. Carbon fiber is just a little too flexible for my 210-lb frame. Weight used to be an issue when I was racing back in the 80s and 90s. But now, I am strictly riding for fun. Titanium is way over-priced in my honest opinion, especially when I am no longer racing.

I am not affliated with this business in any way, but you may want to check out this guy.....he has some good deals on frames...and I purchased my Merckx from him a year and a half ago:

http://gvhbikes.com/current.html

I am currently riding a Merckx frame with the Faema paint scheme and an Campy-10 set-up. This is my fourth Merckx. I have a long torso and relatively shorter legs. In the end, frame fit was a more critical factor than weight and stifness. Merckx's Century geometry fit me much better than most other frames I've ridden.

[RickC]

I'd vote for titanium too, as it seems to combine the strengths of steel and aluminum. I rode steel for years and now have an aluminum fat-tubed Cannondale.

Forgive the admission, but I'm a triathlete, so I'm not as familiar with road races as I might be. I see a big Criterium race in Downers Grove, IL every year and have been to races at the Northbrook, IL velodrome, so I'm guessing the lengths of the races you're in are about 20-40miles????

If that's right, then Al may not be a bad choice. I'm 5'11 and 155lbs. and my 1995 Cannondale R700 is very, very stiff. I couldn't afford Ti back then and had heard horror stories about Al's buzziness. I never noticed it on rides of less than 60-80 miles. For races and sprints, it might make sense and save you some money.

Having said that, during the year I trained for an Ironman (112 mile bike) Triathlon, I DID feel the buzziness and got some cushy (and heavyish) Spinergy RevX wheels (The big carbon X's). This made the ride very pleasant, and I still use them for training today.

I always admired Campy's history and prestige, but always opted for Shimano's (and Sun-Tour's an eon ago!) function/price/weight. I run mostly Ultegra and am very happy with it. I have funky Tri shifters so I can't help with the shifter debate.

Good luck and have fun shopping for bikes!!!

[nostatic]

I'm 6'1" and these days prefer road frames that run on the large size (61-63 or so). I'm a fan of Grant Peterson's philosophy on bike fit ("get the bars up"), especially as I've gotten older. I used to race on a 58cm and the saddle was about 4" higher than the bars. Can't do that anymore...

I'm just waiting for something cool, steel, and cheap to come up on ebay. There's one I'm looking at right now, but I think the owner's reserve is going to be higher than my budget...

[dd74]

Any of you guys ever ride a Look carbon fiber frame? Anyone ride current carbon fiber frames? Maybe I shouldn't dismiss Aluminum or carbon fiber so quickly...