I'm getting my FFL.
 

I've wrestled with this a lot, but ATF already knows who I am, as I bought a machine gun last year. Now a close buddy with a large collection is moving to Europe and will need my help selling his guns, whatever he can't move before he leaves the US. I seem to always stumble upon great deals and have always made good profits on rotating my own collection. Flipping was never my goal, but it will be soon. So it's time to make it all official, allowing me to buy and sell to my heart's content without having to worry about whether I need an FFL. Got my fingerprint cards and passport photos today, mailing app to ATF and local sheriff in an hour, then comes the in-home interview with a local agent. This should be fun. Anyway, if you're an AZ resident, are buying from out of state and need a transfer, I'm your man.

That is pretty cool Rick ! Congrats . Always nice to take your hobbies/passions to the next level .
Are there regular inspections/audits that come with this responsibility ?
Even though I run my biz pretty much by the book , I am always a nervous wreck when the state Auditors show up to rummage through my paperwork .

I looked up and called another kitchen table FFL to pick his brain yesterday. He said the agent who did his interview told him he might be audited once every five years and it's been six already and he's never heard from them again. But they say they can do it once per year. I will be very meticulous in my record keeping.

Clearly, I don't have any idea what's involved, but I would think that the key is rock solid documentation. As long as your documentation is meticulous, flawless, and consistent, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. At least, that seems like it's how it should be. Be a good Boy Scout, be prepared!

ATF is infamous for a zero tolerance policy on minor clerical errors, even though the law specifies violations by FFLs have to be willful. And they prefer FFLs who are in it as a full time job, thereby putting their livelihood at stake when making any kind of error, willful or otherwise. This is not even going to be enough to call "hobby income" for me, but I still want to do it right and not help any bad guys get guns.

Phoenix is pretty lax with regard to business licensing and zoning, so nothing really needed there, as selling guns from home doesn't require a permit or license beyond the FFL. This is never going to be big enough to justify a storefront, and I love my real job.

I well remember when "kitchen table" FFL's were very, very common. I also remember how hard the ATF hammered those people in an effort to shut each and every one of them down for good. The level of harassment and intimidation became legendary. The ATF succeeded, shutting the vast majority of them down, and jailing far too many for those "minor clerical errors" of the kind any business can make.

They even took down one of Washington's oldest family owned gun shops, Kesselring's. They were in at least their third generation, maybe fourth in the same location. They had an immense inventory of firearms, many of them acquired before WWII, stored in their basement. Anything they had that had been added to their inventory prior to 1968 was, of course, immune to the record keeping requirements of that year's GCA. And yes, they were famous for actually having guns that were not only that old, but that had been in storage in that basement for that long. There were so many that they didn't even know what they actually had.

Good enough customers, those who had become "friends", were allowed to go look for themselves. I would often ask at the front counter, to be answered with "I dunno, let's go look..." and we would often find that oddball that appealed to guys like me.

The ATF decided to target them. Actually, just one agent who had a hard on for them. To "make an example" of them. They showed up about a decade ago demanding records regarding when and from whom each and every gun in inventory was acquired. The ATF knew, of course, that this was impossible. That was the whole point. The family fought, of course, but their resources obviously proved to be no match for the unlimited funds of our government.

Just a horribly unjust abuse of power, all elicited by just one agent. Not trying to scare you off, Rick (I know you better than that), just asking you to be careful. Not so much in how you keep your records, in how "legal" your business is ran, but more so to be very, very leery of their agents. But I'm sure you know that already.

Good luck with your "business". Have fun. Above all, please be careful... that old Chinese curse (one of three) - "may you come to the attention of the authorities". (The other two are "may you live in interesting times", and "may you get everything you wish for".)

Yeah, I've heard some stories. The most alarming of the recent ones is their assassination of the airport exec. in Little Rock.

However .... if they deny my app, it's not the end of the world. I still have a nice collection, live in a very gun-friendly state, where I can do parking lot/cash-carry deals all the time and the state and local police are great.

But I'd like to do some business on the right side of the law and learn some more about the FFL process. The last ATF agent I had a real conversation with tried to recruit me, but that was long ago. I will definitely report back after my interview.

Congratulations, one of my Masonic Brothers, who recently passed, turned out that he had the proper "stamps" and more than a few "special" , those are tied up in a trust moment.

Related question: after you become a FFL, how easy is it to give up the license and the responsibilities? Do you trigger any scrutiny by doing so?

I know that, when I give up the FFL or just don't renew it again, I have to turn over my bound book to ATF. I think I'm only required to give them 20 years of records, but I'm not going to worry about that now.

I need to learn about what and when I need to log in and out when buying stuff for myself and then deciding to later sell it, if I had no intention of resale when buying. I bought a 1911 from a guy at a gun show last year. He was an FFL in AZ, but was selling several from his personal collection, told me there'd be no paperwork if I paid cash, but if using a CC, I'd have to do the 4473. I went to the ATM and just gave him cash. I know I did nothing illegal there, but am not sure if he did or not.

Even if I loaded my own, I would be totally broke if I owned an automatic weapon

I really bought the MG to park some money, as they tend to appreciate very nicely. But of course, Mrs. Lee's father and uncle are visiting from China and want to go shoot it this weekend.

^Agree Rick.

I bought my Barrett M107A1 as a place to park some money as well.

Good luck!

Much like boats and planes, much cheaper to have a buddy that has some. I get to play with mini Uzi, fullsize Uzi, Mac10 and m16 on a regular basis, the 1919 not often because it is a ***** to heal with (ammo senitive and picky)

I gave up my ffl. Destroyed my books and moved on with life. C&R’s is a different animal

Are you going to submit for the NFA SOTs at some point?

Unlikely. That's big money, I don't understand the process very well and the penalties are draconian. Might change my opinion over time, but i don't think kitchen table SOT/NFA dealers are real common, and I'd rather let the brick & mortar places deal with that. Still hankering for an MP-40, Stg-44, MG-42, etc., though.

Well, the process grinds on. ATF finally contacted me to say I need a home occupation permit issued by the City of Phoenix before they'd move forward with the interview. I don't know why ATF cares about this, as it's a city issue. And I have some neighbors running businesses out of their garages with lots of machines, noise and smells (all forbidden for residential zoning), who don't have these permits. I know of another FFL in the neighborhood who also doesn't have one. Anyway, I'm working my way through it. It's a $490 application fee, my hearing is on Jan. 2nd and I have to mail a letter to about 20 neighbors and two neighborhood orgs to let them know about it. I'm on good terms with the neighbors I know, but I fear an anti-gun Karen may pop up. ATF said they'd refund my application fee and then fast track me once I have this permit.

Here in Hollywood it used to be that when you rented weapons for a show you just sent your teamster driver to do the pickup and drop off. Then, being California, they screwed it up and you needed to be an FFL license holder since the weapons were rented and you weren't the owner. Became a big PITA and I kicked around the idea of getting my FFL but didn't want the hassle and the recurring fees.

Maybe you can work the angle that you're breaking into showbiz as an occasional armorer for shows filming in Arizona and want to make sure you can transport and temporarily possess firearms safely and legally.

Rust 2.0 might need a competent armorer ^^^

I'm not going to do any gunsmithing beyond site or trigger install stuff.

And no armorer can stop someone from ignoring rule number one of gun safety.

And the first neighborhood Karen is making a fuss over the notification letter I was required to send to my nearby neighbors. This should be fun.

Oh my, this whole thing is going off the rails. It appears the neighborhood Karen has been coordinating an opposition effort to bombard the City with complaints. I got five emailed to me today, two of which were from people not even on the list I had to send notification letters to, so they'd not have otherwise known about it. Some of the emails were very well written and passionate. But most were totally ignorant of the law, thought I was going to be running a brick and mortar gun store out of my house, said it endangered their kids, there'd be shootings, crazed people knocking on doors, accidental discharges, you name it. Total lunacy. I fear my application is doomed. Once I have nothing to lose, I will contact another ATF investigator I know handles a neighbor's FFL, who was not required to go through this BS. I don't want to go around my guy, but I'm just about at the point of having nothing to lose. Such Karens in this place. One is even a nextdoor neighbor and said he's afraid to walk around with his kids. I've been here 15 yrs, he's been here for four yrs. Never a complaint. WTF?

I would be very hard pressed not to make their actions have consequences.

Neighbors can be such *******s.

I don't know how I'd get even with them, not that I'm looking for suggestions. But I'll be keeping a list of the Karens and refer back to it if they ever need a zoning permit or run for an HOA office or even help airing up their tires.

Sorry Rick, people suck. As ignorant as the average American is about guns (especially in the city), they are even more ignorant about gun laws. Legally I suspect you could buy and sell private party out of your home without any FFL (you can in KS), technically the FFL makes it more regulated and therefore “safer”, at least in Karen-speak. But as always ignorance wins the day.

There's always some crazy wanker that wants to feel important. What a pain in the aß!

They do realize that you are in AZ, right?

Good luck, and sorry if it doesn't work out.

I'd shoot their cactus and leave it laying across their driveway. If selling outta yer house bugs her ... go out by the pool or on the patio :)

Good luck Rick!

Yet another reason not to live in an HOA

:)

AZ is loaded with entitled boomers. Nuisance.

rjp

Actually, the HOA is not the problem here. They're silent on the matter and follow state and city law. But it's the HOA-Karen-types who are the problem. I got another avalanche of protest emails today. I responded to all of them. Two of the emails I responded to last night replied with a heartfelt thanks, but I didn't change anything with them. I discovered another home-based FFL in the HOA today, a woman, called her and she was happy to talk, said she also had never heard of the permit, but did online-only sales.

The real chutzpah award goes to the furniture builder down the street, who sent a protest email today. Every single thing this man does trips the permit requirement, and he said he had never heard of it. Since I asked him about it, he now keeps his garage door closed and has covered up the garage door windows with foil. His operation, though not name or address, will definitely be included in my remarks at my hearing this week .... as this whole plan goes down in flames.

Oh well, I had a KILLER week at work so far, finished the year off very strong, sold off a guitar and amp for top dollar and, well, I'll be fine.

Well, well, well, I just stumbled upon the furniture builder's FB page, which then took me to his very nice website listing his inventory and pricing, all of it photographed in his driveway or house. If this isn't a retail business, I don't know what is. Again, no beef at all with what he's doing, but he does NOT (edit) have the permit for it and every single aspect of his business activity trips the requirement for it. I have to assume his wife sent that letter without his knowledge, as he just could not be so two-faced and think I wouldn't mention his operation as an example of very selective enforcement.

It would be nice if you could use the various businesses that you're aware of as leverage, but I'm sure that wouldn't actually help you and would just screw those other folks over. It's too bad you couldn't dig up some dirt on the Karen to make her life (more) miserable.

And I've found a few more. Very interesting that there's an in-home child care provider a few hundred feet away. No license or permit at all. Got a caterer too. They may not have visitor traffic, but I'm guessing their work can be seen, smelled and heard when they're preparing a big job and loading up the truck. Sights, smells and sounds are what trip the permit requirement.

Disappointing but predictable. The left has whipped people into a state of hysteria. Guns are now magical evil objects that can kill without warning.

Not to mention the philosophy of rules for thee, but not for me.

My hearing is tomorrow. I don't have high hopes, but now that I see how blatantly this permit thing is ignored and not enforced except on FFL applicants, I suppose I need the denial before I can appeal, and, if that fails, then to escalate. I don't have anything to lose now. Lots of neighbors now think I'm the anti-christ.

Good luck, we are pulling for you.

I'd be tempted to casually mention to some neighbors that I was told that there is a daycare, a caterer, and a furniture maker located in the neighborhood and I would hate for my denial for the FFL to create unwanted attention to our neighborhood because it might news people to start snooping around... "not that I would know who those people are..." :rolleyes: