Cross Section Of Kitchen Floor

[jyl]

I’m starting to think about what to do with my kitchen floor in this slow-mo kitchen remodel, which will accelerate now that I’ve ordered my cabinets.

Someone put stone tile on the floor, which sits almost an inch above the adjoining floors. I’ve always wondered what was under there. Well, I suddenly realized that I can remove one of the floor registers and find out.

So here is a photo. What do you see?

I think I see the stone tile, then some cement backer board, then some plywood, then some wood strips. Because the wood strips have tongues, I think they are the original hardwood floor, rather than the rough cut strips of subfloor, which must be hidden behind the ducting.



Do you agree?

If so, I’m hopeful that I can pull off the tile and backer boards, in big hunks, without having to hack away at mortar. How would you do it?

I’m also hopeful that the original floor will be salvageable. I don’t know what the chances of that are. The house is from 1911 but I imagine the original wood kitchen floor would have been replaced somewhere although the way, before Mr Remodeler decided to dump stone tile on it.

[917_Langheck]

Tile
Substrate
Plywood
Hardwood/Pine T&G

The next question is what is below the original floor? I once lived in a 1940s coastal cottage that had oak t&g flooring laid directly on joists. Drafty as hell and stupid cold in winter. Any chance of spying the building substructure before demo?

[jyl]

Below is my basement, which is unfinished but used for laundry, art studio, storage, etc. It’s not drafty or damp down there. This is a picture from below. I thought I’d see the floorboards peeking out between the planks, but there seems to be continuous sheets of wood [EDIT I can see a knot hole in the material] above the planks. Maybe when the wood floor was last replaced they put down plywood.

[gregpark]

See that little nail holding the heater duct to the side of the floor? Pry it out to expose the layers of flooring. There's probably barrier paper on top of the subfloor you can see from below. Pop the ceramic tiles up and remove, take a thickness measurement of the remaining layers to the top of the subfloor and set the depth of your worm drive skill saw. Grid the floor into 2' squares with a carbide blade and pry up the squares with crow bars. (A Sawzall will finish your cuts against the walls.) I'm a flooring guy and this is how we do it. Time is money to me and this is the cleanest fastest way.(Gloves, hearing protection and safety glasses are in order)

[look 171]

How wide is that tongue and groove piece under there. If its under 2" then it is normally a hardwood floor which is pretty common from houses built in the 20-40s. Not sure about 1911. When I restored the Greene and Greene from 1908, we made sure the floor was salvaged and made new to match damaged areas. If that piece is more then 5" wide then it should be your sub floor. Kitchen were usually different and didn't have finish hardwood floors. If you are doing a complete remod. of the kithcen, pop out the stone floor first then the cement board will come out in chunks if you can slip a large pry bar under there. LIke Greg said, set depth of skill saw and but out the plywood to salvage the hardwood floor. Be realy careful to not score the hardwood flood with the skill saw. I always have my guys get one chink out and carefully pry out the rest instead of going in gung-ho skill saw blazing. Some of the stuff we do just can't be replaced.

[gregpark]

The odds of salvaging the original hardwood underneath is slim and none (and Slim just walked out the door) it looks to me like a plywood underlayment was installed to prep for the tile which means a while lot of fasteners were shot or screwed into the hardwood flooring. It's not salvageable. Set your saw depth to cut through all but your subfloor. You don't want to cut into that!

[jyl]

Thank you, everyone. If I remove the old floor, and can salvage the old wood tongue and groove floorboards, that will save me money and time.

I have the cabinets ordered, am looking for places to make the counter tops (stainless steel) and sinks (farm, probably glued up marble or similar) when the cabinets arrive. Then I’ll paint the lower cabinets and have them ready. At that point, I need to pull out the old cabinets, do the floor, plumbing, electrical - trying to figure out how to get all those things done as quickly as possible so I’ll be able to move the cabinets into place and have my kitchen functional with as little downtime as possible. I can finish the lights, pantry cabinets, etc after that.

[gregpark]

You can try but I'd bet good money you'll end up taking it down to the subfloor and starting over. Think about it, why would someone cover a nice Hardwood floor with tile in the first place? There was a reason for that tile job. Probably a water damage problem since it's the kitchen. When we put a plywood underlayment down it receives a fastener every 4" in the field. That previously damaged hardwood flooring is also full of holes now too. I'm just offering my observations and experiences with this exact scenario over the years (which is 51 years this year). I'm not saying it's impossible to salvage the Hardwood underneath, just highly unlikely

[look 171]

Unless you are heart set on saving the hardwood floor, and you want to finish this quickly? There will be damages, rot and dark and dirty discoloration from leaks and years of abuse, it is faster and easier to just install a new floor. Getting an old floor to match will also take time and money. I am sure its a rift White Oak floor is under there if there is a hardwood floor there. Plus, all old floors creek and yell at ya when you walk pass. You sure you want a wood floor in your kitchen. I understand you do a lot of cooking and its a working kitchen.

[917_Langheck]

The register area is a good place to test how difficult it will be to remove the current floor, and the better place to assess the potential for old floor damage will be where the original sink was located.

The diagonal subfloor is a bonus!

[911 Rod]

Why would you want to put yourself through this?
The pitfalls you will run into will be off the chart.
New floor on top. Easy peasy.

Edit: I didn't see the 1" rise. Ya, go for it.

[Rtrorkt]

^^
be careful on adding more weight to old joists. Having renovated (and providing stamped drawings for permit) some old homes were built before there were regulations on weight. Could overload.

Given the ease of removing the old flooring (just sweat equity), if you were my client I would suggest finding the original floor, seeing its condition and then deciding the path forward

Just sayin

[911 Rod]

^^
Valid point on the weight. Maybe a wall underneath?

[MBAtarga]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

^^
Valid point on the weight. Maybe a wall underneath?

Also - he already stated the kitchen floor surface is an inch higher than adjacent rooms. I don't think he wants to exacerbate the issue.

[Zeke]

I have found on many old homes (all built before WWII) that what you found is correct. However, that first course of what appears to be shiplap tells me that it was 3 1/2" fir T&G that was sanded to the point that the T&G started to look like shiplap.. If so it's useless.

The modern way to do this, as Trekkor would have said, is to do exactly what is there. E.g., 3.4 ply, backerboard set in thinset, and then tile set in thinset over that, A good solid floor that will last for years.

If that was my house I would (and have) removed it all down to the joists and start over with Trekkor's method. Whether this meets the existing floor level beyond the kitchen is a function of your choice of flooring. Typically the old flloors were sheet goods like linoleum. So no very tall.

In my own 93 YO home, the bathroom joists were cut down 1-1/2" so a concrete float and tile would be flush.

You could get lucky and find that the cement board on you floor was not laid in thinset and therefore will pry up leaving the plywood which should be re nailed or screwed. Squeaks can be handled from below. Tommy on TOH has a few segments on those methods.

I have a job planned for sometime this year where the tils floor is well ve and inch above adjacent hardwood floors in a Monterrey Spanish home of similar age as mine. I have assured the client that the floor will come out in large chunks with little to no jackhammering or saw cutting. She is fastedious.

[908/930]

On the countertops, go with at least 14 ga stainless thickness, easy to weld and harder to dent. Are you sure you want stainless? Not sure what finish you are considering but when used as work surface will always show scratches, if you are trying to keep a nice brushed #4 finish it will be tough, reg mill finish is likely easier to live with. They make some nice stainless farmhouse sinks also. I had a 43x60 stainless steel floor formed up for one of our showers, I finished the welding, really like S/S for that application.

[jyl]

PPOT really is a great place - thanks everyone. To answer:
- Underneath, the kitchen floor joists are supported by the sills and some posts. I don't have any reason to think the support is not sufficient. The kitchen floor doesn't sag, bounce, or squeak.
- I don't need the kitchen floor to be absolutely level with the adjacent floors, but I would like the difference to be less than it is now.
- Accepting that the original floor is toast, either tile or wood are my preference for a new floor. I think that a tile floor will be higher than a wood floor, even if I choose a thin tile, because tile needs plywood and backer - while hardwood could be laid on the plywood alone. Right?
- I'm not too worried about damage/wear to a wood floor. We use mats at all stations (range, prep, wash). I think some wood might be a nice contrast to the other materials in the kitchen.
- I gave my wife the choice of materials, and she chose copper as her #1 and stainless steel as her #2. I think copper will be too expensive and a maintenance hassle, and we have so many copper pots already. I think stainless will be functional, interesting, and make sense with the commercial appliances (True fridge, Hobart D/W, American range) and hood (CaptiveAire 5'). I won't mind scratches. The cabinets will be freestanding Shaker style, painted a vivid blue. Sort of like this, but open shelves not upper cabs.



- Is hardwood floor install a DIYable job?

[908/930]

Yes pretty easy to install hardwood, climatize it for a couple weeks. Cork is another pretty good option for kitchen floor providing no large dogs in the house.

[Zeke]

First of all, I am going to correct myself. Fir T&G floors are self sustaining and therefore are not normally installed over diagonal sheathing. So it very well may be that the next layer of what I called shiplap is over sanded 3/8ths hardwood flooring. Whatever it is, it's done.

Now to the problem at hand, tile. It is nigh impossible to install anything that will look right and perform well over the tile. Adding another layer of any ply or backer is only going to exacerbate the height problem.

I still recommend taking some flooring out, but rather than to the joists, only to the diagonal subfloor. If I am correct about the next layer of floor, the strip flooring, I bet it is barely attached and only held down by the nailing of the ply layer above it.

That should come out in large sections using long, heavy duty pry bars. At that point a new Trekkor style 3/4 sheet secured very well offers a substrate ready for multiple styles of flooring. If tile, then a backerboard is recommended. 1/4 or 1/2, it doesn't make much difference set in thinset. It's just a base for ceramic or porcelain tile. For wood, engineered, or sheet goods, the 3/4 ply should be enough as long as it's prepared well as in nail holes filled, seams reinforced with strip mesh and filled. IOW, a monolithic surface.

A hack would clean your tile, maybe even grind it some, and lay/glue 1/4" sheets on it to start yet another floor. Given the detailed work you did on the exterior, I doubt you will settle for that nonsense.

BTW, HF sells a toe kick saw that cuts flush at the cabinets. It would be best to remove any ceramic tile near the cabinet bases. That leaves more or less a floating floor that once started at a door opening, will lift up, as I have been saying, in large sections. Much neater and faster than beating the tile.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Zeke

First of all, I am going to correct myself. Fir T&G floors are self sustaining and therefore are not normally installed over diagonal sheathing. So it very well may be that the next layer of what I called shiplap is over sanded 3/8ths hardwood flooring. Whatever it is, it's done.

Now to the problem at hand, tile. It is nigh impossible to install anything that will look right and perform well over the tile. Adding another layer of any ply or backer is only going to exacerbate the height problem.

I still recommend taking some flooring out, but rather than to the joists, only to the diagonal subfloor. If I am correct about the next layer of floor, the strip flooring, I bet it is barely attached and only held down by the nailing of the ply layer above it.

That should come out in large sections using long, heavy duty pry bars. At that point a new Trekkor style 3/4 sheet secured very well offers a substrate ready for multiple styles of flooring. If tile, then a backerboard is recommended. 1/4 or 1/2, it doesn't make much difference set in thinset. It's just a base for ceramic or porcelain tile. For wood, engineered, or sheet goods, the 3/4 ply should be enough as long as it's prepared well as in nail holes filled, seams reinforced with strip mesh and filled. IOW, a monolithic surface.

A hack would clean your tile, maybe even grind it some, and lay/glue 1/4" sheets on it to start yet another floor. Given the detailed work you did on the exterior, I doubt you will settle for that nonsense.

BTW, HF sells a toe kick saw that cuts flush at the cabinets. It would be best to remove any ceramic tile near the cabinet bases. That leaves more or less a floating floor that once started at a door opening, will lift up, as I have been saying, in large sections. Much neater and faster than beating the tile.

Thank you, Zeke.

Yeah, not paying anyone to hack my house. I'll do my own hacking, thank you :-)

I'm going to pull all the cabinets and remove the old floor underneath. The new base cabinets are free standing pieces on legs w/ hidden self-levelers, so the floor under the cabinets will be visible.