Advice for Solar Installation

[Mike80911]

I have read several threads here on solar and it seems there are very knowledgeable people here when it comes to solar.
I am considering having solar installed on my home as my monthly utility bills are out of control, ranging between $500-$700 just for electric (i have gas heat) a month depending on the season, not to mention the property tax savings.
My question is what questions should I be asking the representatives when they come to give me the sales pitch? What should I be looking for with the systems they use? Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

I have read several threads here on solar and it seems there are very knowledgeable people here when it comes to solar.
I am considering having solar installed on my home as my monthly utility bills are out of control, ranging between $500-$700 just for electric (i have gas heat) a month depending on the season, not to mention the property tax savings.
My question is what questions should I be asking the representatives when they come to give me the sales pitch? What should I be looking for with the systems they use? Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Mike, a lot will depend on where you live (e.g., latitude, utility rates) and your energy use profile (EV, electric dryer, hot water, kids in the home and so on).

While there are numerous solar calculators available online, I like the one from Project Sunroof (https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/) to give an estimated size of system recommended for your home as well as ballpark system costs and break-even period for purchase, lease, or loan to pay for the system. Once you have preliminary system specs you can go to the NREL (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) site and input those parameters to estimate how much your system would generate each month throughout the year (https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php).

Residential solar is most efficient if it's used as it's generated (i.e., if you run your high-load items like AC, pool or irrigation pumps, washer/dryer, etc. during mid-day to early afternoon) so you might want to consider how much flexibility you have to (potentially) change your electricity use habits. Unless you're contemplating going completely off-grid (in which case you'll need a fair bit of storage) you'll need to sign up w/your electric utility's Net Metering program, which is a special electric rate (tariff in utility terms) that specifies what you'll pay per kWh for electricity, what the utility will pay you for the excess electricity you generate but don't use, what time(s) of day or months of the year those things might change, and whether there's some sort of (typically annual) true-up to help avoid major swings in your electric bill from month to month. A lot of what drives whether rooftop solar is a good deal for you will be driven by the details of the utility's Net Metering rules (which vary by state and utility) and by your ability to adjust how and when you use electricity.

I'd ask about how the installer handles warranty/liability for roof damage during installation, roof leaks years after installation (depending on how the racks are mounted), and degradation as the system ages (PV panels lose their efficiency over time at different rates depending on the materials used). As with any other major home repair/upgrade I'd also ask for local references of existing customers.

HTH

[Mike80911]

Thank you for the detailed reply. Just a bit more information. I have a 3000 SF home gas heat and hot water in direct hot water tank, dryer an in ground pool central ac with one zone. Just my wife and I at this point in the home

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

Thank you for the detailed reply. Just a bit more information. I have a 3000 SF home gas heat and hot water in direct hot water tank, dryer an in ground pool central ac with one zone. Just my wife and I at this point in the home

Try the calculator at the Project Sunroof site. That will give you some sense of whether it makes economic sense for you to consider rooftop solar; I'd pay particular attention to the break-even point. If you plan on moving before your break-even point, for example, it probably will be a costly choice for you.

Your electric utility is required to publish its Net Metering tariff; many utilities will have older, grandfathered-in Net Metering tariffs that are no longer open to customers. It's usually on their website in the Rates section or the Regulation/Regulatory section. Only you can decide whether this will make sense for you and your family.

[john70t]

That's pretty nuts. My combined bills rarely go above $200 (1400sq Mich)
I'd suggest some kind of energy audit.
Even a professional one will save money in the long run.

Pool heat and pump would be first suspect. Oversized furnace. Lack of attic insulation. Single pane windows. Change those halide/sodium outside lights to LED. Foam wrap pipes in the basement.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by john70t

That's pretty nuts. My combined bills rarely go above $200 (1400sq Mich)
I'd suggest some kind of energy audit.
Even a professional one will save money in the long run.

Pool heat and pump would be first suspect. Oversized furnace. Lack of attic insulation. Single pane windows. Change those halide/sodium outside lights to LED. Foam wrap pipes in the basement.

Hey John -- when we last lived in SoCal (~8 years now) our electricity base rate was $0.276/kWh. Even with all new low-E windows our typical bill (gas heat/stove/dryer/water heater) ran $400-$500 a month. Ran a new, high-efficiency variable speed pool pump and only needed/used AC about 2 weeks a year. An awful lot depends on the utility. Here in NV our base rate is ~60% lower at around $0.106/kWh.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by john70t

That's pretty nuts. My combined bills rarely go above $200 (1400sq Mich)
I'd suggest some kind of energy audit.
Even a professional one will save money in the long run.

Pool heat and pump would be first suspect. Oversized furnace. Lack of attic insulation. Single pane windows. Change those halide/sodium outside lights to LED. Foam wrap pipes in the basement.

I have double pane windows my insulation is up to par and my furnace is the right size and well maintained. I have gas heat and hot water and the pool heater is also gas. So that is not included in the monthly electric bill i posted. Believe it or not that is low for my area. Most of my neighbors are in the $700 a month range for electric only. If I use the heat in the pool during the summer the bill can reach over $1000 a month. We just averaged our electric bill over the 12 month period and it came out to $541 a month

[Evans, Marv]

You don't say where you live, which affects solar generation. Installations are pretty standard with all companies. Like Dale said, you need to determine your electrical use to determine the size (in kWh) of system you will need. Sounds like you will need a pretty good sized one with a pool. It is just my wife & me & we have a 3.2K s.f. house without a pool but with central HVAC, and two tankless water heaters operated off of propane. (My propane use with those is about .23 gal./day.). The rest of the house is all electric. Our system is 7.75 kW. When they installed it, they put in 10% over our average usage over the previous three years. We bought an EV later on, and I wish I had asked them to install something like 25% overage. As it was, we sold them back almost 3 mW of power per year. With the EV, we have had to pay some at true up time. If you don't get the extra at time of installation, & you're on a net meteriing program, you can't add on to your existing system. It has to be classified as an additional/extra/separate system. Just additional tidbits.

[LWJ]

I have 16 panels and installed them in 2018 or so. We are at 46 degrees lattitude in sunny Western Oregon. I have a 3000ish sq foot house with 1/2 heated via heatpump. I believe that my electrical bill is pretty close to net zero for the year. I am sure that I pay something, but I produce about what I use.

With that said? I think it was a poor investment for me. I did it because there was a VERY significant Oregon State Tax Credit and I couldn't pass on free $$$.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

You don't say where you live, which affects solar generation. Installations are pretty standard with all companies. Like Dale said, you need to determine your electrical use to determine the size (in kWh) of system you will need. Sounds like you will need a pretty good sized one with a pool. It is just my wife & me & we have a 3.2K s.f. house without a pool but with central HVAC, and two tankless water heaters operated off of propane. (My propane use with those is about .23 gal./day.). The rest of the house is all electric. Our system is 7.75 kW. When they installed it, they put in 10% over our average usage over the previous three years. We bought an EV later on, and I wish I had asked them to install something like 25% overage. As it was, we sold them back almost 3 mW of power per year. With the EV, we have had to pay some at true up time. If you don't get the extra at time of installation, & you're on a net meteriing program, you can't add on to your existing system. It has to be classified as an additional/extra/separate system. Just additional tidbits.

Sorry I am in NYC
40.785680 Lat

[red-beard]

Honestly, I wouldn't believe most of what most solar installers tell you.

What you want is:

1) System Size
2) Cost without the Tax Credits
3) Use PVwatts to estimate the amount of solar produced - https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/
4) Find all the incentives for your area - https://www.dsireusa.org/

The rest of the analysis you need to do yourself. You need to know how much you pay for electricity. How much will you be re-imbursed for power sent to the grid. All of this depends on your local utility.

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

Sorry I am in NYC
40.785680 Lat

I’m same general area same general size same $ range.
Closing Indian point wasn’t a net positive.

[id10t]

Mom had solar put on ~5 years ago, I suggested that she have her roof checked to see if it should be replaced first. "No, it should be good for a while longer, no need".

So now she needs a new roof, and removing and reinstalling the panels will bump the price by about 60%

So.... I'd recommend having your roof checked out, and if it is likely to need replacing in the next 10 years I'd really consider doing it, maybe with a metal roof so it never becomes an issue again down the road.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by id10t

Mom had solar put on ~5 years ago, I suggested that she have her roof checked to see if it should be replaced first. "No, it should be good for a while longer, no need".

So now she needs a new roof, and removing and reinstalling the panels will bump the price by about 60%

So.... I'd recommend having your roof checked out, and if it is likely to need replacing in the next 10 years I'd really consider doing it, maybe with a metal roof so it never becomes an issue again down the road.

Does that require strengthening the existing structure for the extra weight?

[id10t]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Does that require strengthening the existing structure for the extra weight?

No it did not, but having that part of the roof double checked would probably be a good idea.

One other thing... internet connectivity. The company she went with insisted on tying into her wireless. I installed a new AP, set up a new network, and put them on a totally different subnet w/ no access to her "real" network, just a basic internet connection. Power control, facilities control, "smart building" stuff, etc. is all known to be incredibly insecure, so I wanted them totally separate from her stuff.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by id10t

Mom had solar put on ~5 years ago, I suggested that she have her roof checked to see if it should be replaced first. "No, it should be good for a while longer, no need".

So now she needs a new roof, and removing and reinstalling the panels will bump the price by about 60%

So.... I'd recommend having your roof checked out, and if it is likely to need replacing in the next 10 years I'd really consider doing it, maybe with a metal roof so it never becomes an issue again down the road.

Thanks for the advice I had my roof striped and replaced 2 years ago so all good there

[red 928]

Don't believe anything they say.
None of it. All lies.

Instead of spending all that money on solar,
I spent roughly equivalent to a third of it on
improvements to the house to reduce
energy consumption.
High efficiency windows,
serious insulation in walls and ceiling,
sealed drafts and holes,
A pergola to shade to keep the sun off the back of the house,
Efficient AC and appliances, etc.
I could go on.

I ended up saving almost as much as the lying
solar salespeople would suggest,
and still had lots of money left over.

Improvements to energy efficiency last
almost forever and you only have to
pay for them once.

If you really want solar then get it,
AFTER you've done all those other
things to cut your bills.
Not before.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by red 928

Don't believe anything they say.
None of it. All lies.

Instead of spending all that money on solar,
I spent roughly equivalent to a third of it on
improvements to the house to reduce
energy consumption.
High efficiency windows,
serious insulation in walls and ceiling,
sealed drafts and holes,
A pergola to shade to keep the sun off the back of the house,
Efficient AC and appliances, etc.
I could go on.

I ended up saving almost as much as the lying
solar salespeople would suggest,
and still had lots of money left over.

Improvements to energy efficiency last
almost forever and you only have to
pay for them once.

If you really want solar then get it,
AFTER you've done all those other
things to cut your bills.
Not before.

I have done most of the things on your list already. I have made the following improvements
Variable speed pool pump and high efficiency heater
New roof
High efficiency windows
High efficiency gas boiler with hot water holding tank
New central air system
I even replace the cathedral ceilings in my bedroom with a tray ceiling
Most of the issue here is that utility rates are so high that bringing cost down is hard no matter what improvements I do. I agree with your statement about the lies I will hear from them, that was the original reason for my question to maybe help me see through the lies. I have one company coming today at 11 I will post what he tells me later
Thanks]for all of the replies

[red-beard]

If you want the solar to pay for itself, you need to think of one of a few directions.

1) You have net metering - Buy the maximum that will fit on your roof. Make as much power as you can because with net metering, everything you produce goes against your usage. You are trying to produce enough energy to zero out your yearly usage.

2) You don't have net metering - Minimize the system. Just enough solar to take the edge off your summer bills with the AC running. You may end up with only 3-5 kW, but it will help with the summer maximum bill.

For me, I have enough roof to do #1, but I have to sign up for a 20+ cents per kWh plan to get net metering. This means if I do not cancel out my entire bill, I pay double for the electricty I buy. This is the reason a lot of people in Texas do not get the savings they think they should get. The solar companies calculate the bill with net metering, but either they don't sign up for that plan or they can't put enough solar on to zero the bill.

Example, people install 7 kW on their roof and sign up for a 20 cent per kWh plan instead of a 10 cent plant. They cut their net power consumption by 30%. But 70% that is left they are paying double. The net effect is paying 40% more for thier electricity! You have to understand your power plans and how solar will play with it. And I can tell you for a fact, most of the solar companies will not properly explain this.

One other way to work the solar is with a tiered rate system. In Austin, they do not get power plan choice. And they have a tiered system. The more you used, the more you pay per kWh! Progressive rates. The best way to make solar work is to install enough to cover the top tier. This way, your solar is "worth more" and they pay off is quicker.

Understanding the savings is complicated. And I agree with Red 928. Make your home more efficient first. Add lots of insulation. Chnage windows. Get gas appliances to replace electric ones for hot water, home heating and cooking. Reduce your consumption, then get some solar after your educate yourself on how it will work with your local electric plan.

[Mike80911]

As I explained I already did most of the upgrades and I use gas for heating ,cooking, pool heat, and hot water. I am trying to educate myself that is why I asked the question.
There have been many helpful replies and I appreciate all. as for net metering this is from coneds website
Residential net metering on units less than 50kW (most residential units are less than 20kW) is available through ConEdison’s net metering program. When a customer exports or sends back more energy to the grid than used in a given month, they receive credits valued at the retail price of electricity solar ‘bank’. Net metering credits are rolled over and used to offset usage in months when a customer uses more energy than they generate.

At the end of the year, the remaining solar credits in the ‘bank’ are paid out at the “avoided cost rate.” Avoided cost rate is determined by the average wholesale price for the year increased by 6.6% multiplied by the total number of credits.

For small general units (SC-2) not for residential use along with net metering for solar panel systems for multiple dwellings (SC-8) and general large units (SC-9) not for residential use, there is no annual reconciliation or cashing out of the solar ‘bank’.

For SC-2 customers, net metering credits are applied to future usage. For SC-8 and SC-9 customers, when exports exceed imports for a given month the energy charges are zero and the excess energy is converted to dollars and applied against remaining billing items such as demand charges. Any remaining credits are applied to the next month’s bill as kWh credits.