Why have a gun in car?

[dd74]

Is there a stat anywhere showing how many criminals have been prevented from buying a gun during the waiting period?

[concentric]

Originally posted by dd74
Is there a stat anywhere showing how many criminals have been prevented from buying a gun during the waiting period?

Probably not here in CA. It's a felony for a felon to possess a concealable weapon, so attempting to obtain one through legitimate means would mean a nice little jaunt to Chico. As the statue reads below, even testing one out in the store (field stripping/safe handling demonstration by the potential buyer is now required to obtain the Handgun Safety Certificate necessary to own a handgun in CA) i.e. "control" would be grounds for prosecution.

Penal Code section 12021 provides in part: "(a) Any person who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of the United States, of the State of California, or any other state, government, or country ... who owns or has in his possession or under his custody or control any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is guilty of a public offense, and shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a county jail not exceeding one year or by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by both ....

Jason

[RickM]

I fail to see one spec of hatred in Blue's responses.

So Cool, you're telling us you were arguing a point and will now do the research to back it up. Hmmm, I can see you discarding lots of your research...but don't tell us. ;-)

Also, I never, ever said that guns aren't easy to get. I pointed out that people that go to aquire a permit go through a background check, including mental and criminal history. I am in total agreement that the laws should be enforced. Why don't you fight for that to happen instead of critisizing responsible gun owners? I'll be the first to walk with you in protest to enforce existing laws.

[RickM]

Quote: "Probably not here in CA. It's a felony for a felon to possess a concealable weapon"

Do you mean any firearm?

[Rick Lee]

It is a federal crime for any convicted felon to touch any kind of firearm. In VA, if one tries to buy a gun and the background check comes back that they have a felony record, the store doesn't just say, "Sorry Charlie." They call the State Police and they come and arrest the person for attempting to buy a gun - another felony with a 10 yr. sentence. So, why would anyone who even suspects they may get turned down, bother to submit to a background check? Straw purchase? Also a federal crime. Again, VA prosecutes gun crimes with such a hard on, that the feds don't even bother - they just hand them over to VA. Believe you me, the gun laws in VA are very gun-owner friendly, but they hit you like a ton of bricks if you commit a crime.

[concentric]

Originally posted by RickM
Quote: "Probably not here in CA. It's a felony for a felon to possess a concealable weapon"

Do you mean any firearm?

Yes. Although this state statute only deals with handguns, apparently. However, there is a long list of "concealable" and "prohibited" weapons that you can't have in CA, too. I'm not sure if there are otherwise legal weapons that become prohibited to felons other than firearms. Like Richard suggests, there are Federal ramifications to attempted gun purchases by felons as well.

Jason

[RickM]

Yes, A felon cannot have anyting to do with any type of firearm.

State laws deal with the types of firearms a civilian can own.

[Jim Richards]

Come on Richard, VA doesn't have the energy to persecute ( ) gun violations, the police are too busy with revenue generation (traffic offenses).

[Rick Lee]

Funny you mention that, Jim. Last time I got pulled over while packing heat, the cop totally ignored my CCW permit and just went ahead writing my speeding ticket.

When I had an attempted break-in, Fairfax Co. sent an officer to take a report. He saw my autographed photo of me with Wayne LaPierre and said, "You are 'protected', aren't you?" I told him I carry a SIG just like his, but prefer mine in .45. He highly approved.

[Aurel]

Coolchick

I did some research for you, and found some good statistics (from janurary 2001)

In the USA, there are 41% of households with firearms. There are 13.47 intentional gun deaths per 100,000, and 7.23 gun suicides. Those numbers are the highest all categories and all countries. Except for Finland wich has a 50% households with firearms, but much lower death rates.
For comparison, France (just a random pick...) has 22.6% of households with firearms. There are 5.48 intentional gun deaths per 100,000, and 4.93 gun suicides. I am not going to go through the entire table, you can do it for yourselves
here
Scroll the the middle to find the table.

For me it is pretty clear that guns are a deadly disease, but I agree that if everybody is contaminated around you, it forces you to have one too. This is pretty much the same thing with SUVs, which, as a matter of fact, have also the highest rates in the USA.
At least, SUVs can be useful...

Aurel

[Rick Lee]

"At least, SUVs can be useful..."

Yeah, guns have no use at all. I wonder why our cops bother to carry them. What were those 2 million people thinking last year when they thwarted crimes by brandishing a gun? I sure am glad my guns are friendly and hope they never turn on me.

[Aurel]

And if we are talking about kids, it is even worse:

Graph 1 - Rates per 100,000 of firearm-related death among children <15 years - 26 industrialized countries




Aurel

[RickM]

Looks like Kuwait may be your ideal relocation.

[Jim Richards]

This is pretty much the same thing with SUVs

Let's outlaw SUV ownership. That'll save lives. Just when the Japanese are making a full scale assault on that market segment. Ha!

And while I'm careening off in various directions, we should be focusing more on the underlying socio-economic reasons for crime / violence. Gun control is treating the symptom, not the illness.

[concentric]

Originally posted by Aurel
Coolchick

I did some research for you, and found some good statistics (from janurary 2001)

In the USA, there are 41% of households with firearms. There are 13.47 intentional gun deaths per 100,000, and 7.23 gun suicides. Those numbers are the highest all categories and all countries. Except for Finland wich has a 50% households with firearms, but much lower death rates.
For comparison, France (just a random pick...) has 22.6% of households with firearms. There are 5.48 intentional gun deaths per 100,000, and 4.93 gun suicides. I am not going to go through the entire table, you can do it for yourselves
here
Scroll the the middle to find the table.

For me it is pretty clear that guns are a deadly disease, but I agree that if everybody is contaminated around you, it forces you to have one too. This is pretty much the same thing with SUVs, which, as a matter of fact, have also the highest rates in the USA.
At least, SUVs can be useful...

Aurel

To put all this in perspective, according to Aurel's statistics and some other numbers I provide:

US Population: 292,345,371 (US Census population clock, calculated as of right now)

Number of intentional gun deaths as a factor of population per year: 39,378 (Population/100,000*death factor)

Number of suicide gun deaths per year: 21,136 (same formula)

Total gun deaths: 60,514

Total deaths via medical malpractice (according to JAMA calculations for 2002): 225,000

Therefore, you are 3.718 times more likely to be killed by a routine visit to your doctor than to be murdered, commit suicide, or accidentally kill yourself with a gun. I'll take those odds, any day.

If you extend the 41% household gun ownership, there are at MINIMUM 46,100,616 (Total population/average household size (2.6 according to the 2002 census bureau stats)*.41) guns in the US. Most gun owning households own more than one, so if we conservatively estimate the number of guns circulating in America to around 150,000,000, I think we're doing just fine.

As an aside, I used to be more on the indifferent to uncomfortable side of the issue on gun ownership, but the more research I did, the more reasonable gun ownership seemed to me. I like the fact that our current state allows citizens to be cooperative in defense of themselves, their communities, and their families. That just might come in handy some day.

Jason

[Aurel]

Then, to put things a little more in perspective, the chances of dying in a terrorist attack in the US are much smaller than dying by gunshot, which is much smaller than dying in a car accident, which is much smaller than dying from medical malpractice, which is much samller than dying by heart-attack induced by eating unhealty burgers all day long. So Why is the war on obesity not priority#1 instead of the war on terror ?

Aurel

[osidak]

I will say once long ago my father was sitting in his car outside one of factories late at night (2 to 3 am). As most factories are his was in not so nice area of town. It had been sleeting most of the day so his car was covered in ice.

He got into his car (MB E320) and let it idle and had the heater on to help make it easier to break up the ice. While he was sitting in the car 3 people started to try and open the doors and started banging on the glass. He kept a .357 in his glove box. He opened the sun roof and fired one shot through the sun roof. They ran. He then called the cops to report the incident. He went back into the factory and waited for them to arrive. The left rear window was broken and the cops said he did the right thing.

So having that gun in his car he potentially saved his own life. Two people where arrested for the crime, factory surveillance cameras caught imagies that where clear enough to identify the people. Both where carrying knives and one was suspected for a previous murder.

Yeah I am glad he didn't wait for the cops to show..... Oh yes firing a weapon straight up is dangerous but it was an industrial area and he could not see through his windows to drive away.

[concentric]

Originally posted by Aurel
Then, to put things a little more in perspective, the chances of dying in a terrorist attack in the US are much smaller than dying by gunshot, which is much smaller than dying in a car accident, which is much smaller than dying from medical malpractice, which is much samller than dying by heart-attack induced by eating unhealty burgers all day long. So Why is the war on obesity not priority#1 instead of the war on terror ?

Aurel

I certainly wouldn't shed a tear if Ronald McDonald was shot into space along with his restaurant chain.

Jason

[dd74]

Obesity's a personal choice, Aurel. Terrorism isn't.

I think there will come a day when police will ask individuals "Are you protected?" and require it to be a personal/responsible choice of a person to protect themselves.

The police know they're overburdened. It's just the lousy civic and state politicians who won't allow them to say as much.

[JTO]

"coolchick"

Didn't my story show a situation where having a gun as a deterrent kept at least a robbery from occurring? Also, I routinely use a handgun to harvest game. It is highly challenging, proves you are a skilled hunter and a decent marksman. Add that to a handguns other "uses" already mentioned; target, competition, personal protection, etc.

Also, Blue, never in your comments in this thread were you threatening or hateful. Your were quite courteous considering the personal attacks that were directed at you.

We need to do a better job of keeping away from personal attacks. I am glad these types of attacks are infrequent but some, like slackjaws and "coolchicks" are really abusive and hurtful. Guns are a divisive issue. Nothing I say to either of the antigun posters will change their minds. Nothing they say to me, Isabo, Richard, et al, will change our minds. Enough said. Thanks,

Troy