Yup! Although I think a lot of those types are 'big talkers' - i.e. step on my property, I'll shoot you dead. Well, guess what? #1, they probably don't have the ba!!s to do it. And #2, if they do, they'll be serving a long prison sentence, even if the person was there to commit a crime.

The point of the exercise was to illustrate when deadly force is justified by the law. It is different for every individual because it is defined as being when YOU believe your life (or someone else's life) is being threatened. That threshold is obviously different for an 80 year old woman in a wheel chair than for a healthy 40 year old male. The same law applies to police.

BTW: Michigan became a 'right-to-carry' state close to 2 years ago. Naturally, the anti-gunners predicted total mayhem and barbarism. Unfortunately for them, the opposite has occured - crime is down and not one incident has occured related to the ability of law-abiding citizens to arm themselves ..... go figure. :rolleyes:

I have my own pertinent story to add. I was raised by anti-gun parents in a low crime area so like many people here I was gun free most of my life and didn't see the need for people to have them, though I did appreciate our constitution well enough to realize that they were an option available to people that believed differently than me. My grandfather was a bit of a gun enthusiast so I did at least have a lot of familiarity with guns, gun safety and target shooting but still I bought in to the whole 'who really needs a gun' mentality.

Years later I now have a weapons permit and live by the philosophy that its better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it and I think its important that I tell you how I came to change my mind on the subject.

Back in 1988 I left home to go to college in a very bucolic little college town called Gainesville. In the first few months I was there a girl I knew had an assailant break into her dorm and rape her and her roomate. And then less than a year later another carreer criminal flipped out while passing through town and went on a several day murder spree, killing several people and mutilating their bodies using nothing more than a knife. This all occured less than a quarter mile from where I lived and made me realize that crime was not such a rare event and that assault and murder was frequently happening to the people right around me.

In the years following the Danny Rollings murders several women disappeared while jogging or going to the parks around the campus which was a continous reminder that serial predators were lurking where I lived. By reading the paper I also realized that someone was being stabbed and shot nearly every night in that town. I started to realize that I was lucky to not be a victim of crime in that little city where I now lived, worked and went to school.

Then what finally pushed me over the edge was when a very good friend of mine was a victim of a home invasion. Even after he gave the guy all his money and jewlery when the guy got to the door to leave he shot my friend in the face. I guess he didn't want any witnesses or just felt like killing someone. Fortunately my friend lived, but the bullet literally blew off part of his face and eye. When my friend finally got out of intensive care and I went to see him I literally got sick and threw up when I saw what had happened to him. Added to that sense of shock and revulsion was the realization that if I had not been working late that day I would have been at my friends place that night hanging out and watching TV. If my schedule was only a little different I could have died or been seriously wounded like my friend was that night.

It was then that I saw the complete idiocy of the 'just do what the criminal wants and you will be OK' philosophy. From that point on I went about purchasing a handgun and getting a florida concealed weapons permit. It didn't change my easy going and calm nature, but it did make me feel better to know that I had other options besides kissing my on ass goodbye if I met some evil doer in the street or in my home.

In the several years I remained in Gainesville I was lucky to never have anyone try seriously assault me (if you don't count drunk frat dicks at the taco bell trying to start fights) but several other friends were not so lucky.

The closest I ever came to needing it was one time that I was walking home from a friends house late at night and a group of very unfriendly guys in a car driving down the street appeared to be trying to decide if they should jump me or not. I suspect that my less than fearful look and the hands in my jacket gave them reason to continue driving after the awkward 15-30 second silent staring session I got when I politely asked them 'do I know you guys' when they stopped in the middle of the deserted street and started staring me down.

I am sure some people would say that since I haven't needed to justifyably shoot anyone after almost a decade of carrying or having a weapon in my car that it proves their point but its a flawed argument.

I am glad I have not needed to use my gun, but if the time ever comes it will become the most invaluable tool I have ever owned.

But its a free country. If you want to be a defenseless victim of crime if you are ever unfortunate enough for it to happen to you that is also your right.

Wow. Your part of Florida sounds gnarly. :eek: I have lived in various parts of L.A. for 20+ years, (but never in a really bad part), and really haven't experienced much violent crime, either personally, thank goodness, or as a witness. There has been some, but not much.

Violent crime definitely happens here and in other populated areas, but the statistical odds of being a victim are thankfully low, plus I believe that I have a certain influence on the probability by using good sense. One of the few valid points of M. Moore's "Bowling for Columbine", (don't bother w/ flames, I think that he is an ass), was people's perception of crime and danger as opposed to reality. Even when violent crime rates went down sharply, (under Clinton), people's fear of crime went up! And they believed that they were becoming less safe! Very strange.

I'm not going to relate how this ties into Orange Alerts and B.S. wars, but there is definitely someone benefiting from the "selling of fear and danger." And plenty of buyers lined up around the block. ;)

BTW, I am not against gun ownership, and I have one for that "rainy day" scenario. Don't feel the need to carry, but if I ever did I would. Take care, :cool:

I think a few of the things that made gainesville so bad was the fact it is in one of the poorest counties in the state, located near several very large prisons and full of a bunch of kids that are out on their own for the first time.

I also lived downtown just a few blocks from campus which wasn't exactly the best part of town to be in. I wasn't going to let that keep me from walking to where I needed to go, and all I had was a motorcycle for when it came to travelling long distances.

Now that I live in a slightly better area and have a young daughter and cars I don't carry a concealed weapon any more but lets just say I am pretty close to one when at home, work or when travelling.

exactly. just as flawed as trying to say that carrying insurance for ten or more years without an accident is unnecessary. although you and I appear to disagree on many other issues, I'm glad to see that we seem to stand shoulder-to-shoulder on this one. I (like you) just wish that one deciding factor didn't have to come at the expense of your friend. I'm glad he survived. but as with many things in life, it's adversity that sometimes is the motivating factor that finally gets us where we should have been to begin with

Denis. you make an excellent point. however, I hate to say it, but fearmongering is exactly what the Dems use to get elected. case in point: Clinton's '92 campaign issue that "healthcare is our number one crisis. if we don't do something now it will bankrupt this country!" (sorry. not an exact quote but close enough for illustration purposes) well, nothing drastic that Clinton wanted was done and where's the crisis? it never existed. there are many other crises that Dems have manufactured to get elected as well. even the '96 Democratic Convention was one big misery parade. it made me ask "if the first four years were so great, then why all the misery and patheticism?"

like you, I'm definitely not pleased with all of this fearmongering practiced by the current administration or anyone else, but for anyone to say that this is something new would be the pot calling the kettle black ;) (and I acknowledge that this is not necessarily what you implied)

in the end though, I would rather live in freedom tempered by a bit of caution than living in opressive safety, as I too am a firm believer in the principle that those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither

Well, on the one hand I am happy that we agree on something, but actually I think that Clinton was right and healthcare, (or more specifically the cost of it), is the biggest problem that we face today. It's funny that you wrote this, because before I saw it I wrote a response to it on another thread. :)

I completely agree to your first point on why one shouldn't leave a gun in the car.

Regarding your second point on legal gun owners. I agree there also.

I also agree with the third point. Especially that it's no big deal if you get the right "introduction" to guns.

Last but not least you mention discretion. Very important and very clever.

smart minds think alike? :rolleyes: :D

I understand your point, as I am actually inclined to agree when you speak of the issue of cost based on various elements such as tort, high insurance rates, wasteful clients, and others. however, I do not believe this to be the end-all of problems that we are faced with today. there are lots of other social ills that currently plague the country. now, one thing that I would like to ask you however, if Clinton was right, why was nothing (at keast not much) done about it? ;)

I wish that I could tell you about how I have been following the health care issue for years, but it would not be true. I read the paper every day since I was a kid, (~35 years), but I never really read those health care articles back in the early '90s. Didn't believe the whole, "sky is falling" stuff I guess, so wasn't that interested. In hindsight, those who sounded the alarm back then, (including Clinton), were on the mark and understood how serious this would become. My take on why nothing was done is because the public wasn't ready to face the problem yet, we have a tendency I believe to wait until the horse is out of the barn and down the road before we deal w/ the broken barn door, and I am as guilty as the next person.

I am trying to be less like that, and at least educate myself on issues before they become catastrophies. I have always believed that when most people finally believe in the effects of global warming, for instance, it will be WAY too late to do anything about it. Same w/ uncontrolled immigration/population explosion, the adverse effects of globalisation, etc., etc....

I studied journalism in college and always used to struggle w/ the definition of news, but no more. I heard it defined so perfectly by Dan Rather on Letterman years ago: it is either important or interesting. (Sometimes both). "The O.J. trial is interesting, obviously, but extremely unimportant in any large context of the world. The collapse of the Mexican Peso, (at the time), was extremely important, but good luck getting anyone in the U.S. to read about it."

This is an area of interest to me; How do we spice up the important stories enough so that the average joe gives a rat's ass? So that politicians and corporate interests cannot just pull the wool over an uninformed public? If I could figure an answer, it would do a lot to improve democracy and true representative government, IMO. But unfortunately I do not have the answer. The people on this board impress me w/ having strong, usually informed opinions, even if I do not always agree. :cool:

EDIT: Sorry if I have veered off of the OT subject here. ;)

Banning guns is good?
 

I saw this on another site today, I thought it went well in this thread:

Banning guns: It's a good thing

There are 10 Really Good Reasons to Ban Guns: by Bruce Gold

1. Guns are used in self-defense more than 2 million times a year.
However, this makes the attempted crime a 'nonevent,' which necessarily complicates the police investigation.
Without civilian ownership of guns, these police investigations would not have been compromised. Civilians should leave crime prevention to the police, who are properly equipped to investigate, following the crime's completion.

2. Some .004 percent of guns are used in crime each year. This is way too high. All guns should be banned.

3. In 98 percent of civilian gun defenses, no shot is fired. If you are not going to fire a shot, you clearly don't need a gun.
Banning guns will prevent these unnecessary defenses.

4. The high crime rate in Washington, D.C., is caused by the
cowardly migration of criminals from gun havens like Virginia, in order to avoid armed householders and concealed-carry civilians. This criminal migration is detrimental to helpless unarmed citizens in no-gun areas.

5. Two relatively small and geographically restricted groups, inner-city gangs and drug dealers, consistently commit the majority of gun crimes. The best way to prevent this is by denying guns to all law-abiding people everywhere.

6. No woman needs to protect herself from rape, assault or murder. The police will protect her by investigating the crime after the fact. Police paperwork is all the protection anyone really needs.

7. Gun owners are disrespectful of authority. Their failure to completely and absolutely trust and depend on the authorities is excessive democracy and sends a bad message to children.

8. Guns owners engaging in self-defense are taking the law into their own hands, and only the police and criminals have the right to take the law into their own hands.

9. Children and young people should remain ignorant about guns. Real guns and real gun knowledge dissipates the fantasies created by violent video games and TV.

10. Guns reduce people's reliance on the police and government, which fosters a mistaken belief in ``rights.'' No person has the right to question authority. No person should be less than 100% dependent on authority. This is fundamental to social order.
Banning guns will help to establish the Order the authorities want. This is good.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1081716528.jpg

LOL, good one Isabo.

:D love the sarcasm http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/clap.gif

This is the site I got it from
http://www.geocities.com/liberalgunfarce/index.html
Good reading esp for the antigun crowd:p

Right on, Curt!
Add Minnesota to that list. One full year, no wild West shootouts, not one gun crime related to carry permit.
Violent crime stats down across the board.
I don't leave a gun in my car. It is with me at all times.
Have I ever had to use it to save my life? No. But I could!

Good site Isabo. It really is funny when you sit back and think about it ...... registering <u>law-abiding</u> gun owners!!!!!!! WTF is that all about? Now if these A-hole government bureaucrats could come up with a way to register <u>law-breaking</u> gun owners, I think we'd all be for it! :rolleyes:

I got mugged in Salt Lake City last year, two buttheads deceided they needed my jacket more than me. I was jogging at 6 am. I did not have the gun I normally carry because I was traveling. I wish I had had it, the one holding the knife would have ate one instead of me breaking my knuckles on his neck. He was still laying there when I split with jacket and his friend got away. Things may have been very different...

I used to have a job where I had to come and go between 1230 and 430 am from a very secluded office in one of the worst parts of Atlanta. I had to walk out to my car in a unlighted, deserted lot or from the car to the office. At that time, the mugger's/gang banger's "weapon" of choice was a very thin, 12-18 inch phillips head screwdriver. If a policeman rousted them...it was only a tool they were carrying under their coat. Sometimes they were alone...one time as many as 3. Sometimes they had a knife or bottle. Maybe if I gave them my wallet, they would have let me be. I don't know. My employer would not allow me to carry a gun. Although I am not a large guy, I have some training (weapons and self-defense) and am very good in close hand-to-hand. Otherwise, I would have at least lost my money, maybe my life several times. IMHO, an unarmed person with a bit less capabilty with their hands, a bit smaller, a bit more out of shape, or with a bit less natural "meaness" would have been dead. Often, they seemed to be looking for the weak. If I did not seem afraid, and managed some bravado, often they backed off and went to look for easier prey. One night, a guy had a gun....I thought I was dead...fortunately he did not seem to know how to use it. I had a stick, an old shovel handle I think, that I had started carrying with me when walking to my car....I guess he couldn't see it in the dark. I think I broke his arm or hand with it...the gun went flying. I was so scared..and mad that I was scared...that I chased him about 3 blocks hitting him on the back and head with the stick before he outran me. I love that stick, but sure wished I had a gun then. Oh, someone mentioned pepper spray...A guy threatened to spray me with some once....We both got spayed in the melee. It hurt, but was by no means incapacitating. In fact, it just made me mad. I beat him to a pulp. It must suck to get beat to a pulp, spayed with your own pepper spray, and be arrested for assault and attempted robbery all in the same night. I'll bet he went straight after he got out of prison.

You can get much further with a kind word and a gun, than you can with a kind word alone.

you keep telling that to yourself when some dormant nutcase freaks out and takes his daddy's gun to your kid's school...

it's kind of true if you think about it since you would definately say pretty please and beg him to let your kids go unharmed...

the only real polite society is a well brought up society...
woops... to late now

Hey, welcome to the fracas, 3 months late. Glad you had something useful to add.