Originally by RickM

So Cool, you're telling us you were arguing a point and will now do the research to back it up. Hmmm, I can see you discarding lots of your research...but don't tell us. ;-)

no Rick M., I meant i needed to find the PROOF IN PRINT to prove to you. I know the statistics but I can't quote 25.6% of the people blah blah I have to research the exact statistics from the exact appropriate sources for proof.

troy dont blame me for a personal attack as i did not attack anyone my responces were not an attack they were an instgation

thank you

k

Richard...are you actually saying you would rather have your permit immediately even though the alternative is not having the law in place to potentially screen out people who are mentally unstable or have criminal records? Are you saying that 5 days to wait it too much? Ohmigod This is incredible. And honestly.....people....if you feel that much crime is going to be committed to you in that 5 day period you are trying to find statistics for someone who files for a permit...then gets killed because they didn't have a gun.....this is the reason these laws need to be in place. Good God people. Wake up! Quit perpetuating the violence.

JTO, what did I say that was abusive and hurtful?

Look at Aurel's table......

In countries where guns are prohibited.....the gun homicides per 100,000 less that 1. The united states is 6.24 for 100,000. That's a HUGE difference.

I never had a need to carry a gun. Why do you feel like you are going to be attacked?

Personal choice, C_C. Why badger these guys, huh? It gets old, and no minds are going to be changed by whatever stats are brought up.

Now, tell us about your car. :)

I have no problem submitting to a background check to get a permit. At least during traffic stops, the cop knows right away from my permit that I'm not a fugitive or felon. But does anyone think a real criminal is gonna go through the hassle of this to buy a gun? And the 5 day wait was only intended as a buffer until the instant check system was up and running. That was mandated by the Brady Law. Since VA had instant check set up years before the law required it, I think the waiting period is ridiculous and it does not prevent a single crime. Why should I be denied my rights for one second? Ask the shop owners in Koreatown in LA if they would have wanted to wait 5 days to buy a gun when the cops couldn't help them during the Rodney King riots. That was before the Brady Law.

I don't expect to be attacked, but then again, I didn't expect to be attacked when I was mugged at knife and gun point, two of my good friends didn't expect to be shot in the head (and live to tell the tale), and most of the women that I've cared about didn't expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes in some way/shape/form either.

Cool_chick, I'm going to let you in on a "secret" about history and human evolution that seems to escape you: We've just barely managed to scrape by. Life is really amazing, but humans are a violent species with some fairly intolerant religous and social values, who have competed for limited resources all our history. The reason why you are able to write "Quit perpetuating the violence" is because you are an American (I assume) who enjoys dominance of the land we live on by physical (wars with England, France, Mexico, and the Native American tribes) and economic violence. You are oblivious to the workings beyond your curtain of comfort. Think about it.

JCM

Edit: Removed false quote from Orwell. He didn't say it.

Don't even go there... you know as well as I do that neither of us have control over our government policies (though we fool ourselves into thinking we do....)

I don't agree with our country trying to enforce our beliefs on other countries.

dd_74, they were badgering me.

I guess I live in a good enough area where I don't need a gun. Plus, I can't kill a bug, let alone a human (even if they were attacking me). So, if I had a gun and tried to pull it on them, it would be taken from me and I would be dead. Carrying a gun would be lethal for me.

my bf has a '72 Targa. I just have a boring Grand Prix. But it gets me where I need to go :)

Sure, you can blame it on the government, but the instrument of violence has always been the individual. Governments just decide which people to kill for which reasons, not carry it out. Historically, all major battles were decided by individual combat, not government policy.

That's my final thought. Thanks for playing ;)
JCM

no Concentric, you were saying I'm like this because I enjoy the "dominance of the land we live on...." I'm not blaming the government for the violent nature of our society.

I am done playing too Concentric. It was fun! :)

'72 Targa...cool. :)

Now, honestly, no one here badgers one another. We have pet peeves, like e-rams, V8s in Porsches, water-cooled vs. air-cooled engines, a veritable political split between conservatives and liberals, and the one and only on-line wrecking ball in the form of "Tabs." Just some background for a newbie such as yourself (less than 20 posts).

But IMHO, no one badgered you. I think you started that argument with Blue this morning. Regardless, that's done.

Back on topic: I don't believe our government should force "its" -not exactly "our" policy - on anyone. But a certain amount of policy is forced upon us simply by default of being citizens within this country.

Yes, we're free, and we have an openness to debate, but we also happen to be extremely wealthy. We've got a lot of nice things in our homes, and a lot of pretty people amongst us. But the have-nots far outweigh the haves so much so that it raises an extreme dichotomy within this country that has effectively seen the disappearance of the middle class. The gun, as you will further see in the future, enables a survival that has supplanted middle class disappearance. Where the have-nots had a comfort level to ascend to, they don't any longer. Whereas the wealthy had a level that separated them from the lower masses, they do not any longer. The lower classes have become disenfranchised even more, and are now angered. The gun is the great equalizer in this regard. From one side of the fence, it gets you what you need, while from the other, it protects you for what you are.

The ones who I know of that are older than forty and proclaim themselves as anti-gun, are rich Hollywood celebrities who are liberal and wealthy enough to move to Southern France if things get too out of hand here. That's what Johnny Depp did. These people represent no one but themselves and expouse their beliefs only to hear their own voices. They've got armed guards and security systems, too. The rest have to stick it out and defend themselves. And so with that, as desperation increases each day, and defense more tantamount to survival, and a class war continues, the gun becomes more necessary. There's really no other choice. Because as soon as the bad guys know you may not have one - and I stress "may not," then they'll come for you when you least expect it.

I didn't like the way Blue was picking on Slakjaw.

Haha that's so funny....I guess that may be true....

Well written dd74. The great fundamental question, I beleive, is the following: Is there enough wealth for everybody on this planet, or does wealth have to be acquired and protected at gun(bomb)point. By wealth, of course, I am not talking about goodies like Porsches, pretty houses and plasma TVs. I am talking about more fundamental things like Oil, water and food.
If that is the case, meaning if ressources are really that limited, then I better buy my gun now. But my belief is that all ressources can be derived from energy, and energy exists in infinte amounts in the universe. Therefore, I am not scared about having to defend my beef at gunpoint as my neanderthal ancestors were doing at stonepoint. That may sound a little far from
the everyday concerns of lay men, but it is the way I feel.

Aurel

"There are about two million defensive gun uses each year; guns are used defensively four times more frequently than they are to commit crimes."

From Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107274,00.html

FWIW

I found saw this today and I thought the pros and antis might like to check it out:

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/SlipperySlope.htm

I don't think any of us still living in 50 years time will recognise or appreciate the brave new world. The younger generations will simply not know any better.

My work is at it's root that of a machinist, so it should be no surprise that I enjoy firearms. They are wonderful examples of mechanical evolution and a very direct man and machine experience.

Back to the topic: I often travel into less than safe areas. I will on occasion concealed carry. (yes it's very illegal here but better than being very dead) My own rule is to carry without a clip in the gun. Should I ever feel the need to defend myself, my first move is cover/evade /escape. Then I can very, very quickly slam a clip home. I hope I never have to load up for my own, or families defense. I do not relish the thought of taking a shot at a person. I practice for fun and sport and I guess I could be quite deadly. God, I hope it never ever comes to that.
At least if it did, I may survive to live another day and enjoy my obsessive pelican habit.
regards
David

I took a 'Concealed Carry' class a few years back. One of the classes was taught by the County Prosecuter. He told a story and ask for a show of hands at various stages .... it started out with somebody making a lot of noise out in your front yard at 2AM. How many would crack the the window open and just derf this loudmouth right on the spot? No hands. OK, now he's on your front porch. Anybody? a few hands went up. Now he's banging on the door and yelling obsenities. A few more hands go up. NOw he says he's going to break the door down and rape your wife. Several more hands go up. Now he breaks the door down and is standing inside your house. A bunch of hands go up. Now he's reaching for something in his coat. More hands. Now he's got something in his hand and is walking toward you. A couple of more hands. There are still 5-6 people who haven't raised their hands and the Prosecuter finally looks at them incredulously and says, <i>"just what the F#ck are you people waiting for!!!!?????"</i> :D

I dunno... the people that would "cack" the guy for being on the porch yelling...those are the scary ones.