Land of the Free

[tabs]

Even the poorest of Americans are wealthy by the rest of the worlds standards. You own a referigrator, beat up old car, a TV, have indoor plumbing your rich!

Point is boyz...you gota get up in the mornining and do massa's bidding or yous don't get the geld to pay the bills...and the bills are for what...a new Bigger screen TV, A new SUV, a vacation to ???, a bigger house than Mr Jones....it's the American Dream of Course you fools, get on the treadmill along with everyone else and become slaves to consumerism. No wonder the rest of the world looks at Americans as being greedy, and grasping.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Hell, I save as much as I can. Otherwise I'd have a V8 in my 911 by now.

[Aurel]

There are always two ways to look at things, even when using facts that are real in both cases. Let me illustrate this by depicting a `bad` and a `good` picture of america.

The bad america:

1-Fact: america has the highest proportion of its population in jail of all democrtatic countries.
2-Fact: america has the highest rate of guncrime per 100,000 of all countries in the world
3-Fact: america has the highest consumer debt and domestic debt in the world. Indeed, america owes money to the rest of the world
4-Fact: america greatly contributes to pollution and green house effect, by refusing to adhere the Kyoto protocols and using 25% of the world energy for a population less than 5%.
5-Fact: america is loosing jobs at both ends: the lowly qualified maufacturing to china, the highly qualified IT and high-tech to India, Korea, etc...
6-The insurance system (health, etc...) is totally screwed up.


Now, the good america:

1-Fact: America has stood against dictature and freed the world of nazsim and communism.
2-Fact: America is a land of oportunity, that still attracts the brightest minds in the world, because they can find here the best conditions to express their potential.
3-Fact:There are no poor in America, just people who have a smaller TV, or bums who chose to be bums.
4-Fact: People are really free to express their opinion, even when it is offensive or stupid.
5-Fact: There are many opportunities to become rich here: hard work, smart work, or even no work (cf. Tabs !)
6-Only here could I own a Porsche, and for that I love america !

Bottom line is: america is the land of extremes, and the very worse cohabits with the very best. Seeing only one or the other would be erroneous. It surely has to with america being a melting pot. But things are definitely not black or white, and have to be watched constantly, and americans have to be critics of themsleves and not fall asleep to maintain excellence.

Aurel

[tabs]

Originally posted by Aurel
India, Korea, etc...
6-

But things are definitely not black or white, and have to be watched constantly, and americans have to be critics of themsleves and not fall asleep to maintain excellence.

Aurel

BOYZ NOW YOU KNOW WHY I SAY THE THINGS I DO ABOUT THE R GRUPPIES.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Good summary Aurel, but I have to contest a few points (both good and bad; I'm not a blind patriot):

Indeed, america owes money to the rest of the world

I am not an economist, but isn't that FOREIGN debt??? (As opposed to consumer and/or domestic)

4-Fact: america greatly contributes to pollution and green house effect, by refusing to adhere the Kyoto protocols and using 25% of the world energy for a population less than 5%.

I've been to Indonesia, the 3rd most populous country in the world, and the air there is, for the most part, unbreathable in any of the cities. We're not the only ones at fault here.

4-fact: People are really free to express their opinion, even when it is offensive or stupid.

Yes and no. cf. some of the insane copyright laws that are getting passed because our so-called "representatives" (House and Senate) are in the pockets of industry.

6-Only here could I own a Porsche, and for that I love america !

Actually you could probably manage it in a number of countries. Just pick one where the taxes are less than 50% of your income and the vehicle reg. tax is less than 25% of the vehicle value.

[Aurel]

I am not an economist, but isn't that FOREIGN debt??? (As opposed to consumer and/or domestic)

I am not an economist either, but when the US government spends more money than it has (which is the case now) and when the income of taxation cannot cover those expenses (especially when you decrease taxes while increasing spending !), it creates domestic debt. To cover this debt, the government prints US bonds that are purchased by foreign banks (Japanese, for instance). This is how domestic debt becomes foreign debt.
(From what I have understood )

Aurel

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Ah, I see. Thx for the explanation.

[turbo6bar]

Don't the European countries run deficits as well? I believe when compared to GDP, the US deficit is not hugely out of whack. However, I do still believe in a balanced budget, and don't believe we should run a deficit year after year.

Otherwise, I agree with your synopsis about the state of America.

Jurgen

[Aurel]

In january 2004, the US GDP is $10,836Bn and the account balance is -$537.3 Bn, nearly 5% of GDP.
The EU-15 GDP is comparable, $8,736Bn in 2003, but the balance is +$65Bn.

Aurel

[speeder]

The problem now is that apparently the skyrocketing U.S. deficit is threatening the world economy. At least that's what I read last week. I know that different members here disagree about the necessity of invading Iraq, but I think that we can all agree that it is going to "F" our economy for a very long time.

[island911]

But what about all that oil that "we are taking from Iraq" ? . . that is why we went in; right?

[speeder]

That deal hasn't panned out according to plan so far I'm afraid.

[dd74]

Oil is why we went in. But there are different theories about why we went in to get the oil. One I heard last week is the Saudi monarchy is on the verge of collapse and/or coup, and Iraq is a great stepping stone to preventing that. Problem is there are problems in Iraq we have to deal with first.

If I were one of these fundamentalists and had the ability to issue "fatwahs" (sp?), I'd issue one to collapse the Saudis while the Americans are busy in Iraq.

But then who knows who within the Saudi monarchy isn't already a fundamentalist. There's rumor they helped administer 9/11.

It's a rat's nest.

[Aurel]

The major reason for going into Iraq is because Dick Cheney wanted it. He is the guy really in charge in the White house, and he persuaded Bush. Of course, this has to do with his views on energy too, since he is the head on energy matters. Combine that with the mad ideas about preemtive war and prevention of assymetric threats of Rumsfeld, and you have the driving forces that took the US to Iraq. 9/11 was just the detonator, but all the charge was already in place. The problem I have with this policy is that it is driven by ideology (Rumsfeld) and special interests (Cheney).
Instead of solving the Israelo-palestinian conflit and reducing the US oil dependancy, theses guys have decided to intimidate potential terrorists and grab the most oil possible. Not necessarily the best approach on the long run, IMHO.
The relation with the Saudis and its degradation also contributed to accelerate things.

But what about all that oil that "we are taking from Iraq" ? . . that is why we went in; right?

Looks like things did not go as easily as predicted. The US would like to strike a deal with an Iraqui governement, but for that, there needs to be one. And all the oil infrastructure needs to be rebuilt, oil companies need to get in, but they won`t as long as the situation is not stabilized.
Why would you build a pipeline if it will be blown up the next day?

Aurel

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by Aurel
Instead of solving the Israelo-palestinian conflit

Not gonna argue with the rest of your post, but good luck w/ the above!

Peace between two groups can only come when both sides want it or one side wipes the other out.

[Aurel]

It seems to me that all the trouble is coming from there, so this is where I would focus. It is clear that the Jews and the muslims hate eachother. This is the destabilizing factor in the middle east. Whose fault is it ? I see responsibility on both sides. The radical zionists are not any better than the jihadists. Sharon has only put oil on the fire. Now, it looks more and more like one side wants to wipe the other out. The problem is that christians are now being dragged in this mess, and even worse, Europe and US are antagonized, because US supports Israel while Europe is more pro-palestinian, or less supportive of Israel. In the end, it is religious, and really, who the hell care whose religion is better ?
This is why I do not go to church...


Aurel

[tabs]

Originally posted by dd74
One I heard last week is the Saudi monarchy is on the verge of collapse and/or coup, and Iraq is a great stepping stone to preventing that.

I said that quiet a while ago in a post.

You boyz continue to say it's "OIL" or "WMD" ...you don't listen.

Duh..look...at...the...map! What countries surround Irak? Saudi, Syria and Iran...hmmmm. Doesn't it appear that Irak is right in the center? Hmmmm...What country is to the east of Iran?...Ahhh Afganistan...Where are US troops deployed again? Irak and Afganistan...oh on both sides of Iran...hmmmm. Do you think maybe that puts a little pressure on Iran?

The USA in Irak sends a very clear message to the Arab/muslim world...if you fk with the USA this is what will happen to you!

Khadifi Duck got the message.

Think GLOBALLY, Think Strategically. Think BIG PICTURE.


The boyz in the WH are now thinking about N Korea, and how they can solve their problem there. Look to 2005 after the election.

Also if your really sharp you shouldn't be distracted by whats going on in Irak....the Great Game (the flash point) is afoot in another place and the dice are being rolled, and there is scant coverage of it here in the states..lets see if any of you know where that is?

GUESSES ANYONE?

[cegerer]

"the Great Game (the flash point) is afoot in another place and the dice are being rolled, and there is scant coverage of it here in the states..lets see if any of you know where that is?

GUESSES ANYONE?"

Iowa?

[tabs]

The steaks are higher than who wins in Iowa...sorry guess again.

[Aurel]

It has to be a country that has no nukes, no strong military, but oil...and that is evil...Humm, let`s see. My guess is Iran.
But I also feel like the US would like to be present in south-east Asia...maybe to be able to threaten China...so maybe putting some bases to help those philipnos to fight against Al Quaeda is in the plans too...

Aurel