Remember your patriotism

[yellow911turbo]

I'm here in my room. Tired after a 12-hour shift... Too tired to go to the gym so I'm doing push-ups and whatever other exercise I can. I just looked at the slideshow on Iraq from yahoo! and something dawned on me.

Where is your patriotism? All of you ba$tards talking about how the war in Iraq is wrong. What does it matter?! Everyday more of my brethern-at-arms die under the hand of the enemy. I'm considering volunteering. I got back not even 3 weeks ago and I want to go back. You know why? So that we can all complain about White Houses' wrongs, try to prove their rights or argue about little insignificant things with only proof to back your argument is your opinion. I'm sorry, but voicing your opinion in this way matters very little. WAKE UP! Our country is at war. Save the arguments for later. God willing there will be time. Write them down in your little diary before you go to sleep. Today support your country.

I am one of the few people that can't claim ignorance on this one... I am in Comm. so I had regular access to the Internet media in the "outer world" and I knew/know what's going on. The Marines and the Army - who do most of the fighting - don't have much access to the media and they hear only what rumors bring to their little circles... and how LUCKY they are. Do you all realize how much you lower a soldier's morale by saying the things you say? The lucky ones are those that have been there for a while... they still have something to fight for. The ones returning or going in for their first time have been infected with trash talk. Forget politics for a few days and remember Patriotism - we all bleed red and all pledge allegiance to the same flag. I know this won't stop anyone from practicing their right of free speech... just remember these words and those who have paid the ultimate price for every word you are able to type.

Serge

[dd74]

You're right: whatever you say won't stop anyone from practicing free speech. People who question this war, do not question the soldiers, or at least not entirely, but question the reasons for going to war. Even some of the soldiers have seemed to question why they're there.

[fintstone]

Serge
Been there and felt your pain brother. Nothing worse than dodging bullets or busting ass for folks who don't appreciate it. Thanks for your service. Hang tough! Get some rest and exercise, make yourself stronger....you will need it when you rotate back. Are you at Aviano? Try to stay away from the "Yahoo boards' for a while. They only want to hurt your morale.
Stoney

Right on Serge.

[Overpaid Slacker]

Amen, Serge.

It's a cop-out to say "we support the soldiers but not the war" - it's corrosive to morale to hear "we love you guys, but you're fighting an unjust war" or some other permutation that demeans the cause. At the end of the day, it amounts to something like "whatever actions are required of you as a soldier, under the circumstances of war, are entirely without justification or honor because your cause is corrupt. But we can forgive your transgressions b/c you were just the implement of the policy." Gee, great, sign me up for some of that good ol' American appreciation, followed quickly by the de rigeur therapeutic forgiveness.

It's as though the highest principle is supporting the soldiers, and therefore any further critique is legitimized by having co-opted the issue of support for the soldier; and the judgment/patriotism/reasoning of the critic cannot be assailed. Neat trick until you see it for what it is.

The highest principle is the cause itself, and the soldiers are the means to the end -- they deserve our full support, not just in saccharine lip service, but commitment to their morale. Part of which is accepting responsibility for the consequences of exercising First Amendment rights. If these people actually care about the soldiers and Marines they should tone it down some, commit to seeing this through (as the servicemen have) however rough or distasteful it'll be while we're at it, and save the recriminations for later.

And the "oh, we're only second-guessing" stuff isn't any justification for the derision, IMHO. All this keening for a plan ... for whose eyes? We're a democracy and all, so the admin should've let us all know their plan, so we could've critiqued the whole thing and keep the retired know-it-all generals in champagne and filet. But they didn't tell us the plan, which must mean we don't have one -- that's the only possible, logical reason, right? From the dawn of time, military pundits have acknowledged that the best plan usually goes out the window when the first shot is fired - so planning for planning's sake is fine as it helps to evaluate options, etc. But to fetishize a PLAN to such extremes is ridiculous -- the facts on the ground are going to change, the PLAN won't have been 100% correct, no matter how many supercomputers you modeled it on, and X's and O's are not going to move according to the choreography of the textbooks.

This effort is virtually unprecedented in its scope, ambition and complexity -- you can't possibly buy (other than for baldly partisan reasons) that there haven't been plans made, revised, thrown out, recrafted and adapted, some of which worked, some of which failed (which happens to the best of 'em). A plan is no guaranty of success, though slavish, robotic adherence to a plan when the facts don't match they assumptions -- as they rarely do -- is a virtual guaranty of failure.

The cause is noble and honorable. Our soldiers are the finest equipped, best trained, most lethal force in the history of mankind. However, their dedication and commitment is our most valuable, insuperable asset. IMHO we ought to steward that dedication carefully and resist the corrosive bile we get from BigFatTedKennedy (btw, I guess he'd agree then that Vietnam is BigFatTedKennedy's brother's Iraq) and his fellow-travellers taking us right back down the path of our collapse of resolve that worked so well for our adversaries in the past. We had overwhelming man and materiel superiority in Vietnam, won almost every battle we fought (including Tet, which was an unmitigated disaster for the VC and North Vietnamese) and allowed ourselves to be poisoned from within at home. Boots on the ground is not the real issue, and no guaranty of success.

Incidentally, Serge, before I climbed a tree in it, this was my ride:




Hope you get back in yours soon. Thank you for your service, and remember the Great Silent Majority at home that don't protest (we have jobs) and don't need to dichotomize our support for you *versus* the reason you put yourself in harm's way.

JP

[nostatic]

Originally posted by yellow911turbo
Forget politics for a few days and remember Patriotism - we all bleed red and all pledge allegiance to the same flag. I know this won't stop anyone from practicing their right of free speech... just remember these words and those who have paid the ultimate price for every word you are able to type.

Serge

While I understand your sentiment, there are those that would argue that protesting the war *is* patriotic. Those in the military made a conscious decision to follow the orders of their superiors. The populace has their job too...and that is to be thoughtful and participate in our democracy. And that includes (and in fact demands) that there be dialog about the choices that the country's leadership makes.

As for supporting the troops but not the action, I think that is possible. And I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll contribute $50 to VFW( or another organization that helps out military families). I would encourage others to do the same.

[singpilot]

How come 930HP350 (no, that's not a typo) is not here talking about lies, bull and spin?

Gawd, I get tired hearing that stuff.

I got out in 1977. Left Alameda Naval Air Station on foot in dress whites. Half a block away 3 of us got hit with tomatoes and eggs by a group of anti-war protestors. I mean, we weren't even at war at that moment!

I wanted to go kick some a$$. The calmer of the group said... "No, they were mentally abused as children by their liberal parents. It's not their fault they believe that stuff."

Has always worked for me.

Serge! The silent majority is right behind you. Yes we are trying to rationalize all the leftist press, but in the end, the truth will prevail.

Hang in there. Your service is appreciated.

[fintstone]

Serge
Don't let them fool you. Your work is noble and your cause is righteous! Serve with pride.

Sing
I am with you. These guys are a waste of time. They make up for their lack of knowledge with their excess of hate. They will never see the truth because they choose not to. It only seems like there are a lot of them because they post the same lies over and over again across the web (and admit it). Even on this board, they copy the same argument (that they did not even write) to multiple threads. They are truly the minority and are fools. I am equally a fool to have wasted so much of my time on them. I have more important things to accomplish.

Happy Easter!

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone
They are truly the minority and are fools.

awww, now that isn't nice. I'm a minority *and* a fool? My mom (rest her soul) will be so dissapointed...

[350HP930]

Originally posted by singpilot
How come 930HP350 (no, that's not a typo) is not here talking about lies, bull and spin?

OK, how about a quote from a guy who realized the power of patriotism a lot better than some of you dupes.

Originally said by Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Originally posted by singpilot
I got out in 1977. Left Alameda Naval Air Station on foot in dress whites. Half a block away 3 of us got hit with tomatoes and eggs by a group of anti-war protestors. I mean, we weren't even at war at that moment!

I wanted to go kick some a$$. The calmer of the group said... "No, they were mentally abused as children by their liberal parents. It's not their fault they believe that stuff."

Has always worked for me.

LOL, after a story like that I got to start wondering if you are a 1st class bull$hitter like fint. At least you could have spiced it up by claiming to have been spit on by hanoi jane while spending time in a north vietnamese prison. If that story is true then it guess it does not say much for your ability to stand up for yourself. Then again you were just a pilot. Leave it to the people who are experts in hand to hand combat to be able to defend themselves again dangerous tomato and egg wielding pacifists.

[GrindingGears]

Originally posted by 350HP930
LOL, after a story like that I got to start wondering if you are a 1st class bull$hitter like fint. At least you could have spiced it up by claiming to have been spit on by hanoi jane while spending time in a north vietnamese prison. If that story is true then it guess it does not say much for your ability to stand up for yourself. Then again you were just a pilot. Leave it to the people who are experts in hand to hand combat to be able to defend themselves again dangerous tomato and egg wielding pacifists.

*********!

EDIT: Serge, you're damn right.

[350HP930]

Yeah, I'm an ******* alright. One who always speaks his mind.

I don't really take a break from it despite lame arguments that we americans should not speak our minds or voice criticisms at times of war. If that is the kind of country you want to fight for go join the chinese army.

The same rules also apply when I am goaded on the internet.

[singpilot]

I stand corrected.

I should have gone over and kicked their ass. Were you in Alameda in 1977?

Won't make that mistake again.

No, come to think of it, I have to remember you like to troll for a response for the f*** of it.

I'll stick with my reasonable approach. Why get in the mud and wrestle with the pig...

You have the right to have your radical ideas because lots of patriots went and fought for your right to do so. Some of those people get tired of listening to the anarchist idiots who would stand outside of a NAS and throw tomatoes at servicemen. I knew you'd be proud to do that, quoting as your argument Nazi history.

BTW, there is another assault on your manhood in the Condi thread. I expect more Nazi quotes from you there.

However, I have given up responding to your trolling. Maybe you can reel in some other poor bastard.

[singpilot]

Originally posted by 350HP930
OK, how about a quote from a guy who realized the power of patriotism a lot better than some of you dupes.




LOL, after a story like that I got to start wondering if you are a 1st class bull$hitter like fint. At least you could have spiced it up by claiming to have been spit on by hanoi jane while spending time in a north vietnamese prison. If that story is true then it guess it does not say much for your ability to stand up for yourself.

Unlike you, spicing something up (embellishing, lying) is not the first thing that comes to my mind.

I don't need to embellish anything. Most of your retorts and political commentary take some speck of a quote from something, spice it up with a giant leap, and the espouse the lies, bull and spin crap.

You did it here.

Have a nice life. We'll talk again on November 6. I think the silent majority is going to speak again.

[techweenie]

It's patriotic to dissent.

techweenie (Vietnam-era veteran)

[techweenie]

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiently or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."

--T Roosevelt

[350HP930]

Damn sing, for a guy so quick to slap the lie, spin, bull and anti-american label on those people you disagree with you sure don't like it much when the tables are turned. Thats a pretty sweet double standard you got there. I was almost ready to play the name game with ya and call you ****pilot but I decided not to fully stoop your your level in this immature little game you wanted to play.

If you don't want to hear about or discuss any of the subjects in the OT political threads then you might want to try staying out of them. While us big boys are able to openly discuss our opinions about 'controversial' subjects they are not suitable for everyone. Since we live in a free country you are free to ignore them instead of expecting us to censor ourselves.

Good luck on being one of the silent majority untill the election.