He was either lying or was an ignorant dupe. He later admitted no first-hand knowledge of any of the charges he made after the cases he cited were proven to mostly be folks that had either never been in the military or never in combat.

So now Vietnam was a honorable war? When did this happen? Even in the movie "Fog of War" McNamara comes clean as to this was a civil war that Johnson felt we had to get involved in to "Stop the commies from taking over the whole of Southeast Asia". ie the "Domino theory".
By all accounts Vietnam was a disaster.

BTW How does all this Kerry bashing fit with the topic of Condi Rice?
If you don't like him ok, don't vote for him but coming up with this horse***** is a joke.
Why don't you find Bushs lost service records to prove he fought in Vietnam instead of being AWOL?

Geoff

i don't know. It seems to me that representing the govt of the enemy to your government during hostilities in an attempt to affect the outcome of the war..your country's unilateral withdrawal..indeed approaches treason. At the very least providing aid and comfort to the enemy. Kerry did not only support our withdrawal (he called it a peace plan, not me), but did so at the expense of our POWs and soldiers in the field.

I don't understand this reasoning at all. He went to meetings to talk about a peace agreement. That is NOT providing aid and comfort to the enemy. That is NOT done at the "expense of our POWs and soldiers in the field." In fact, he went there to try and help with a peace plan that would bring the POWs back to the US.

You talk like the only acceptable outcome is for everyone to support the US, and that any war must result in total annihilation of the enemy. Things just aren't that black and white in the world...at least in the world I see.

1. Service in Vietnam was indeed honorable. We were defeated from within. If it was not, Why all the crap about Kerry being a "war hero?' You can't have it both ways.
2. McNamara is just like Dick Clarke..his story changes for money.
3. After we pulled out, hundreds of thousands were killed in southeast asia.
4. after 12 pages, we have discussed everything but Dr. Rice...you only compain when your ox is al gored.
5. Strangely enough, President Bush has released his miliary record...why would a "war hero" like Kerry not be willing to do so?

in no small part as a result of US support of other repressive/despotic regimes in the region.

And he didn't question *service* in Vietnam as being honorable...but rather the war as a whole. Some people think you can differentiate between the two...

Read his words. He took the other side in the war. Just like his friend Jane Fonda, efforts like his encouraged the enemy and prolonged the war. Private citizens do not normally meet with and try to aid the government that you are at war with. This is plain silly.

and on that we can agree :)

Looks like I am not the only one that doesn't get it. Check out this interesting article:
Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2004
McCain: Hanoi Hilton Guards Taunted POWs With Kerry's Testimony

These days, former Vietnam War POW Sen. John McCain has nothing but praise for his fellow Vietnam veteran Sen. John Kerry, the Democrats' current presidential front-runner.

But after he was released from the Hanoi Hilton in 1973, McCain publicly complained that testimony by Kerry and others before J. William Fulbright's Senate Foreign Relations Committee was "the most effective propaganda [my North Vietnamese captors] had to use against us."

"They used Senator Fulbright a great deal," McCain wrote in the May 14, 1973, issue of U.S. News & World Report. While he was languishing in a North Vietnamese prison cell, Kerry was telling the Fulbright committee that U.S. soldiers were committing war crimes in Vietnam as a matter of course.

Sen. Ted Kennedy, a key Kerry presidential backer, was "quoted again and again" by jailers at the Hanoi Hilton, McCain said.

"Clark Clifford was another [North Vietnamese] favorite," the ex-POW told U.S. News, "right after he had been Secretary of Defense under President Johnson."

"When Ramsey Clark came over [my jailers] thought that was a great coup for their cause," McCain recalled. Months earlier, Sen. Kerry had appeared with Clark at the April 1971 Washington, D.C., anti-war protest that showcased his testimony before the Fulbright Committee.

"All through this period," wrote McCain, his captors were "bombarding us with anti-war quotes from people in high places back in Washington. This was the most effective propaganda they had to use against us."

McCain biographer Paul Alexander chronicled the Arizona Republican's anger toward Kerry during their early careers in the Senate together.

"For many years McCain held Kerry's actions against him because, while McCain was a POW in the Hanoi Hilton, Kerry was organizing veterans back home in the U.S. to protest the war."

In his 2002 book, "Man of the People: The Life of John McCain," Alexander says that the two Vietnam vets finally reconciled in the early 1990s after having "a long - and at times emotional - conversation about Vietnam" during a mutual trip to Kuwait.

Later, Kerry sought to minimize the rift, telling Alexander: "Our differences occurred when we were kids, or at least close to being kids. It was a long time ago, and we both came back and realized that there were a lot of difficulties in the prosecution of that war."

Truth is the first casualty of war.

I know people who were there, who machinegunned farmers from their helicoperters, then circled back to machinegun the farmer's water buffalo. Atrocities? Only one really saw the light of day: My Lai (sp?). There were lots of others. People shot just because our guys were frustrated? Plenty.

And the same thing is going on today in Iraq. That's just how war is. it's not a videogame.

So it's best to be sure there's a significant threat before U.S. lives are sacrificed.

North Vietnam was no threat to us. Iraq was no threat to us.

Oh, you forget the Kerry boys....Both democrats, both "war heroes," both admitted atrocities. But we just don't prosecute democratic senators, do we. Only poor dumb Army Lts.

but Flint you're missing the essential point of the story: TODAY they see eye to eye on things. McCain isn't living in the past, refusing to see things in perspective or move onwards and upwards. Kerry at least followed his convictions (and did his duty), instead of hiding out in a stateside guard unit. Kerry went to Paris to try and broker peace instead of hanging out at the barbershop downing beers and doing lines, and failing in every business venture he was set up with (by the rich family friends).

I think that is why McCain finally came around with regards to Kerry, and why he rolled his eyes when people talk to him about Bush (ie when he appeared on the Daily Show).

So both McCain and Kerry agree that Kerry wasn't a bad guy in this episode. I'm not sure what you've just proved.

(edit) whoops, Todd beat me to it.

I give up. You guys would defend the devil himself if he were a democrat. How you can consider a guy who admits to have committed atrocities to have more honorable service than someone who served in the Air National Guard is beyond me.

"How you can consider a guy who admits to have committed atrocities to have more honorable service than someone who served in the Air National Guard is beyond me"

Hey, at least he showed up and honored his commitment.

No, I wouldn't...and haven't on numerous other posts. I just disagree with your assessment that what Kerry did was an "atrocity". Hyperbole from someone that apparently is really bitter about something. Most people would not consider what Kerry did an "atrocity." You and perhaps a handful of others do, but not the majority, and it is not a *fact* no matter how much you insist that it is. Just because you say it enough times doesn't mean it is so.

You have a very singular perspective on things in this world...again, black and white.

Did Clinton screw up? Yup...big time. I hated his BS semantics about "is". Was he responsible for the economic upturn? I'd say partially, but not fully. Was he responsible for 9/11? I'd say partially yes, but not fully. See? I don't blindly follow ideology or see things through very angry partisan glasses. I don't even know that I'll vote for Kerry...I'm not a huge fan. But I'm not going to lambaste him as a traitor for doing things 30 years ago that even POWs like McCain seem to be able to have gotten past.

Lets count their medals for one to see who has the most medals won in combat!
Thats one way to judge who had more honorable service. Maybe Bush would win if we counted days AWOL.

Geoff

I'm not sure he admitted to committing atrocities.

"I'm not sure he admitted to committing atrocities."

It's okay, Gore never said he invented the Internet, either, but conservatives care little about accuracy.

He said he did. I am only quoting him. Was that the time he was telling the truth or the time he lied?...or does it depend on the meaning of the word "atrocity"?