The Ultimate Solution

[techweenie]

Okay, this has been percolating under the surface. Let's get it out in the open.

Don't ask, don't tell. Clinton was such a visionary.

[island911]

What are you trying to tell us techweenie?

[techweenie]

In case you hadn't noticed, nobody can tell you anything.

[surflvr911sc]

If only it was as simple as the options you provide.

[dd74]

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell any of the three options you list will happen, so I can't even vote on this with any seriousness.

If we nuke them, it'll be like nuking ourselves. The entire planet will shun us and we might as well commit mass genocide on ourselves.

Oil? Of course, but no one's going to admit to that.

I figure we'll be there for a good ten years at least after any sort of government will be established that even remotely resembles democracy.

You need to add in your poll, "nation building" or establishing democracy. It's a fair entry, and enough people believe that is the true reason we are in Iraq.

Otherwise your poll displays some pretty shallow liberal thinking, and is completely and unfairly partisan.

[campbellcj]

My vote is to pack up our stuff and come home. Staying any longer isn't going to accomplish squat, other than more casualties.

[techweenie]

"...your poll displays some pretty shallow liberal thinking..."

Darn, because I was hoping to relfect some shallow right wing thinking that's been expressed here and on talk radio.

If you will recall, when Bush campaigned, he particularly eschewed 'nation building' so that couldn't be an option... could it?

[dd74]

Originally posted by techweenie
"...your poll displays some pretty shallow liberal thinking..."

Darn, because I was hoping to relfect some shallow right wing thinking that's been expressed here and on talk radio.

If you will recall, when Bush campaigned, he particularly eschewed 'nation building' so that couldn't be an option... could it?

Yes, it is an option because he's establishing democracy under the guise of our country, and only now is begging the UN to take over what we obviously cannot properly execute - but while using the model he, and specifically Cheney and Rumsfeld have established.

Oh, and no need to play down to the shallow right wing, particularly on this board. You're better than that. They insult conscious thinking while imbibing in unconscious masturbation.

[slope-nz]

All we can do is get the hell out of there.This is a country of weak people that are willing to be lead by fools.When the people have had enough they will revolt on there own,in till then we are wasting time and lives.I honestly fell sorry for the masses but they have to do for them selfs.IMHO Randy

[Icemaster]

Originally posted by slope-nz
All we can do is get the hell out of there.This is a country of weak people that are willing to be lead by fools.When the people have had enough they will revolt on there own,in till then we are wasting time and lives.I honestly fell sorry for the masses but they have to do for them selfs.IMHO Randy

...What he said.

[techweenie]

campbellcj: "My vote is to pack up our stuff and come home. Staying any longer isn't going to accomplish squat, other than more casualties."

Oddly enough, I heard this exact tactic espoused by a right-wing columnist yesterday. He argued that an essential element of establishing a nation is pride and that if the Iraqis could be made to believe they drove the U.S. out, they would build their own nation more quickly.

Wacky concept, I thought, especially since such a small minority there is fighting us, but if it saves American lives, I'm all for it.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by slope-nz
All we can do is get the hell out of there.This is a country of weak people that are willing to be lead by fools.When the people have had enough they will revolt on there own,in till then we are wasting time and lives.I honestly fell sorry for the masses but they have to do for them selfs.IMHO Randy

Yup, just like we do with most of the world. 'Cept these guys have oil, which made their dictatorship a zillion times worse than the 1+02e dictators around the world. If it weren't for the oil, we'd just let 'em fight it out like a couple of mangy mutts.

[slope-nz]

I don't care if it is perceived as win or lose.The past leadership had to go,SH was a threat to everyone. Most of the world was weak to make us do it ourself .But now it's time to go, I think that we are a better country to leave now with the statement having be made that "We don't care what you do inside your borders, just don't threaten the rest of us". Besides if they don't get there act together and live in the 21 century Iraq is nothing but a goldfish in a pool of sharks, other nations on there borders will absorb them. Maybe this is when they will ask for help. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Let,s get out of there intill we are ask back. IMHO Randy

[Staylo]

Originally posted by dd74

Oh, and no need to play down to the shallow right wing, particularly on this board. You're better than that. They insult conscious thinking while imbibing in unconscious masturbation.

I don't think any statement I've read on this board descibes it any better than that.

[bigrubberjeep]

1st - We accomplished what we came to do, captured the dictator and his sons
2nd - Help them (Iraq)in echange for oil to built their infrastructure with a clause that says they must have a legal democracy in place in order to receive any help.
3rd - Do MAJOR public relations help throghout the world to rebuild confindence in America's over all goal of providing safety and suporting Human Rights.
4th - Pick a smaller country with less political issues, help them get our of poverty, rebuild their infrastructure and raise them to point that we can say "This is what we can do for your country if you follow our plan"
5th - Focus more on our own nation, bring us closer and help us understand eachother issues so we can all get passed these issues that devide us.

If get attacked once more by terrorist - pick a small island, capture as many terrorist as possible, put all of them on the island and drop the Nuke on them. (let them burn alive and distribute the video world wide)

[slope-nz]

bigrubberjeeb, I agree with half of of what you say and wish the other half could be made true. As for the terrorist, crush them like the vermen they are. Take them out in mass and if they are hiding with the inecents,this a case of you lose becase you were willing to be in bad company. IMHO Randy

[island911]

Originally posted by slope-nz
. . .Take them out in mass and if they are hiding with the inecents,this a case of you lose becase you were willing to be in bad company. IMHO Randy

That is a tough point to argue against. Especially when the "innocent" are group-cheering the murder of an American citizen. (just like 9/11)

[Staylo]

Originally posted by bigrubberjeep
4th - Pick a smaller country with less political issues, help them get our of poverty, rebuild their infrastructure and raise them to point that we can say "This is what we can do for your country if you follow our plan"

BRJ
We have had the perfect opportunity to do this in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, our Government has shown how much they really care about this model by grossly under-manning and under-funding the effort by moving on and siphoning the funding to Iraq without finishing the job. The worst part is that this was the legitimate battlefront on terror, and we are largely ignoring it. Tribal factions are again the norm, the Taliban is reorganizing, the pleas of our hand picked Government are being ignored and promises of financial help are being reneged on. We are set to repeat the conditions of post-Soviet Afghanistan all over again. Only you history scholars out there will see the relevance there and understand it. (A model that would certainly apply to Iraq, were it not for the oil.)
I don't think we will have any credibility in the world until we can:
1. Change our leadership. Like it our not, does anyone really believe that GWB can actually change International sentiment, ever, at this point? Be objective now!
2. Demonstrate that we can follow through on our commitment to the war on terror by finishing the job, and dedicating the needed resources to stabilizing and rebuilding Afghanistan like we promised.
3. Dedicating the proper man power and resources to eliminate Al-Queada, the real enemy and terror threat. Finding Usama would be a nice start.
At this point, all are a huge roll of the dice. My bet is that #1 will have to happen before #2 & #3 are seriously considered.

[Icemaster]

Originally posted by island911
That is a tough point to argue against. Especially when the "innocent" are group-cheering the murder of an American citizen. (just like 9/11)

IMHO, that removes them from the "Innocent" category.