Another beheading....
 

Do they really think these actions will HELP their country or do they just want to seize control of the gvt and not let us help set up a "friendly" gvt?

Lynn, what bothers me is that the terrorists in Iraq don't just want us out of the country, they want to continue chaos in their own country. They don't give a rat's asss for there fellow countrymen. You think if they actually got the U.S. to leave that they would then turn their attention to making life better in Iraq?

Kurt, I have to agree with you. These particular terrorists want a religious state.

Our being there gives al Quaeda a huge recruiting advantage. As soon as we are gone, they will continue to fight, but without the broad international support they now enjoy.

I'm very concerned that support for al Quaeda in Saudi Arabia is very high and current events might lead to overthrowing a friendly -- if corrupt -- government.

The South Korean hostage was apparently killed today:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/22/iraq.hostage/index.html

I suppose if they continue to kill more people from more countries, eventually, the terrorists responsible for these killings will have the whole world pissed off at them!

A modest proposal: if Al Queda claims responsibility for killing an innocent person (like the two Americans these past weeks), we should retaliate by kililng one of theirs that are held captive. Hamarrabi's code. Maybe that's the only way to show them how senseless their actions are.

-Z-man.

I guess the other thing that pisses me off is how the media can spend weeks on the "prison abuse scandal" because it involves Americans, but will only carry any of the beheadings for maybe a day. Oh and where is the mass hysteria/outrage from the rest of the world over these beheadings?

Where do I sign up? Is the wait list long??

I really hate saying this, but unfortunately, I think this is true (and it really svcks!)

The more people the terrorists behead, the more the world is likely to become "used to it" I mean, when you compare the outrage when Nick Berg was killed to the reaction to Paul Johnson's murder, there is quite a bit of difference.

I'm sitting here in the computer lab at work where they are showing college baseball on the tube. There have been no interruptions by the news, reporting this story whatsoever. When Berg was murdered, it was all they were showing.

How many more heinous murders will these people commit before it becomes "useless" as a propaganda tool, or whatever you want to call it?

Worse yet, what will they resort to doing next?

Randy

Be careful guys.

You run the risk of being labelled terrorists by some members of this board with talk like that.

Funny how the facts can make some people go all squirrely, isn't it? ;)

Randy

The Israelis probably don't batt an eye when a bus bomb kills 25 citizens. We will become the same way. Also, when the events occur across the world, we are further disconnected. I imagine our reaction would be stronger if a terrorist cell in the US killed a family of 6 at McDonalds in Louisville, KY. We should be thankful it's all "going down" over there.

If we left the Middle East and capitulated as the terrorists wish, would there be further demands? Would bin Laden say,"I will not rest until the US regime falls?"

After what has happened, any citizen who stays in Iraq or the Middle East should know they're taking their life in their own hands. I'm not saying any person deserves to be captured and killed, but they do know the risk exists. I know if I was there I'd be thinking about some personal defense.

For all the left and right bickering on this BBS - no one has posted a potential solution. I'm not talking about the Iraq war, but the whole Middle East issue in it's entirety. What happens if the industrialized world cuts it's oil dependency by 50%, or perhaps just the U.S. does? What happens if the U.S. stops supporting Israel and just walks away? Will terrorism just go away and there will be a big love fest in Bagdad? That would be an interesting thread - no blaming - just solutions. Kerry in November is not an appropriate answer on it's own.

As long as you have different religious factions in the middle east you will never have peace.

I'm afraid we are only at the begining of the attrocities... The World is being lit on Fire. This brings nothing but sadness for me to say.

Saudi may fall...what does the USA do if it does? The USA cannot let the oil fields be in fundlementalist hands...if it perchanch does let a Jihadist government get control...you'll see sanctions so tight against the Saudi's that their Aholes will squeak.

At some point here the USA will drop all pretenses both domestic and foreign...right now the US governments policy is to get rid of Terrorism but in a nice way.

Further the WTC was a knife in the heart...and some people in the USA still proclaim that WE are the "Baby Killers." At what point do these people wake up and say, "You know what, we maybe "Baby Killers" but right now if we don't get it together and KILL the enemy hes going to KILL US!" It doesn't matter if the Jihadist has good cause against the USA, he's bent on KILLING US, and there is no REASONING with him. So what do you have to do to a mad dog when he is attacking you?

Absolutely true! The Jews and Muslims are sworn enemies, ever since Issac and Ishmael went their separate ways.

And that's just one of the religious conflicts apparent in the mid-east. Perhaps the biggest, but there are other religious conflicts that prevent peace from occurring in that land.

It is not like in the USA where peace and tolerance tend to stressed more...
-Z.

Z, if only it were that simple. Even among the muslim sects they continue to fight. Sunni against Shiite and both against the Kurds.

This conflict is truly a clash of Civilizations, it is Western Secularism which has brought you democracy, capitalism and the technological revolutions vs an Eastern Theocracy which preaches dogmatism over innovation (which is a miniority in the Islamic world).

The West is vunerable mainly due to the abstract nature of it's financial and monetary systems. Militarily the West is clearly dominent, industriaily the West is dominent. Yet it is the radical behavior of the Jihadist that can shake the Western World through Terrorist action. It is not the small event of beheading an indivdual, or the bombing of a bus or train. We will get used to the idea, and the Western Steamroller will continue on. It is through the BIG Event that the Terrorist causes fear in the hearts of Western Leaders. For if it becomes evident that the Jihadist can strike at will, it WILL CAUSE A CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE in the Western system. It will have shown that nothing is safe and the government cannot protect you or your assets from destruction. If that comes to pass Western capitalism/monetary system will collapse and we are headed for a New Dark Ages.

"I DONT WANT TO DIE, I DONT WANT TO DIE"

when i saw/heard that videotape yesterday on the news, my heart just sank, that's just terrible...can't believe it's getting this bad.

but regarding the attention, this time the hostage was South Korean, not American, that's why it wasn't such a big deal as last time from a news perspective, sad to say.

Worse was the footage of the poor guy's wife.

Sadly, we have to consider anyone captured by these animals as "already dead."

If I understand the news announcement correctly, South Korea has doubled its troop commitment.

Maybe it's time for you to drop another MOAB on a wedding party?

I generally just read these political rants...

Tabs hit his head on the nail in his last post..

I worked in Iran in the late 70's....I left when anti-american slogans were grafittied on THE COMPOUND I LIVED IN

I worked in Israel, just after the Camp David accords...

I was driving to Jerusalem just as I entered Hebron, my pickup was cut off , then rear ended..

All of our posessions were taken, and they kicked our asses ( my friend/co-worker and I)

I loved when I worked off shore... In this day and age, no way in hell ill work over there

I saw and experienced it going bad over 20 years ago...

Ouch, and it is still smarting if you wana know? Hitting my head on a nail that is...

Typical Anti American sentiment that pervades in other parts of the world. Often led by anti American media..

You all know I am not nearly the "hawk" that some of my friends here are. We liberals get cast as ridiculous peaceniks that oppose any kind of confrontation. Lambs to the slaughter. Oblivious of the brute fact that evil exists and fighting is sometimes necessary for peace. (By the way, Jesus had some suggestions in this regard that would certainly place him in the most radical and extreme of "dove" categories, and his whole body of liberal teaching remains as the "Great Untried Social Experiment")

At any rate, some of us real-world liberals can get plenty angry, and would support some effective means of eliminating or controlling these cowardly and evil terrorists. For example, like Warren said many months ago, I would very much love to see our nation deal with these terrorists like the Israelis dealt with the terrorists who killed the athletes in Munich. One by one they were hunted down and killed in their boots.

Further, while I am grossly uncomfortable with the freedom-reducing provisions of the so-called "Patriot Act," at least as they apply to Americans, I would not assert any freedom protections for terrorists or even people in other countries. Intelligence gathering regarding non-Americans suspected of terrorism, in my view, can happen in any effective way our intelligence community wants to gather it.

Sure this means there will be mistakes made and great care needs to be exercised. But terrorists also need to feel like the one with their name on it is just around the corner. And the world needs to be sure that we consider terrorist hunting season to extend all year with no need to buy tags.

Invite them to meetings and just blow up the entire building. Publish daily scorecards. Have competitions between various paramilitary groups. All ordinance should be dipped in pig blood.

It Sounds
 

It sounds like yor a Translibber Super...it seems like you have woken up to smell the napalm in the air and realize you better get them beofre they get U. That Liberal nicities and castigation of your own governments motives and methods is dysfunctional. That it might actually undermine your countries efforts at survival, with dire consequences for your own future well being.

I love it! :) I routinely disagree with you Supe, but that's very well put. I'm all about go-get-those-dirty-scoundrels, but then, I'm also in the military. Think there's a bias there? :)


Dan

Ever wonder what would happen if the terrorists did that to an Israeli?? Hmmmm..... Would be a much different reaction than we get here. Instant retaliation.

I should warn you guys to sit down when I do this. Island once called me an "independent" and this kind of thing is probably why. Of course I didn't punch him in the nose right away, but I hope he does not start that as a rumor.

Tabs, this is not a matter of waking up and smelling the napalm, nor does it save any politician from castigation.

Two comments...

1) Tabs has come up with another visual term... TransLibber.

2) The reason the terrorists do not try that with Isreal is precisely that. The retribution will be immediate and resoulte.

That policy USED TO keep the USA out of these messes.

Before you start asking me why that policy was dropped prior to Viet Nam, know that I doubt we could resume that policy without going nuclear. The nuclear card was withdrawn from the table when other nations started getting them.

At this point in time there is no other strategic energy source in the world that is viable economically. Anybody who thinks that there is an alternative source that can supply the needs of global economy was last in line when brains were handed out. END OF STORY. We are stuck with what we got.

Super I am not talking about the political responsibilty that all leaders bear. I am talking about the ideological demagogs that perpetually suscribe the USA's motivation, and method in a nefarious fashion.

At this point in time, fossil fuels are not viable, environmentally. Anybody who thinks that the global economy can continue to increase it's use of fossil fuels at the present rate without destroying the entire planet was last in said line. END OF STORY. We are not stuck with what we got.

I think the sun's going to keep burning for a while, isn't it? Maybe it's time to go solar.

I believe the point being illustrated by a few posts is that the solution is going to be costly. Cost could be dollars, way of life, economy of the US and THE entire world, and even lives in conflict. So we pull out of the Middle East and let the sandpit melt. We encourage alternative energy sources like solar and geothermal through tax incentives. Guess who pays for that? The solution might well hurt everyone, and not just the rich. We want alternative energy? We want to be energy independent? Well, Joe Sixpack will be paying $4.50/ gallon of gas. It's not like we flip a switch and things change overnight. Perhaps the solutions are too expensive for Americans to accept. Bush cooks up the war in Iraq to take the fight overseas. For right or wrong reasons, that is what happened. Now, the question is what next? The problem is beyond Democrat vs. Republican. I believe neither side has a magic bullet. Each party wishes to preserve the current status of life, and I don't blame them for wanting that. Who is going to tell the voters that consumer prices will increase 10% per year to reduce our dependency? After all, an increase in oil prices or a decrease in supply has a huge affect on the economy. That's just the way I see it. Jurgen

I'd agree that the development of alternative energy strategies will be expensive, but I'd also assert that it needs to be done, and can be done right now. I'd guess the petroleum industry, which is a large industry in our country and is a "player" in our political process, is not supportive.

Tabs, I'm not familiar with the word "suscribe," but I do indeed have some criticisms for the current administration. I think that's patriotism and you can think what you like about it. It seems clear to me that either our "president" declared war on the basis of very poor, incomplete, unreliable and incorrect information (in which case he did not exercise the degree of care most of us put into our jobs), or his real reasons for this decision included some considerations he has not shared with us. Either way, I have a big problem with his performance.

Just because I am deadly serious about rooting out enemies of my country does not mean I am going to fall under the same hypnotic trance the rest of you seem to be suffering from.

The thing is, Wayne, Super; that while even if we could be 100% energy independent tomorow, the middle east would still be selling plenty of fuel to the other counties in this world.

It's quite simple;
OIL is a cheap form of energy.
OIL will NOT fall out of worldwide favor anytime soon.
OIL is not trying to kill us. (if we stop buying, do you think they will stop killing?)

BRAVO!

Thing is, when we start sinking the kind of money into alternative energy research that we do into oil exploration we will start to see tangible results - world wide.

Since when is oil cheap? Look at the WHOLE cost, not just the price at the pump - that's so near-sighted. The cost of lung disorders and cleanups of the coastline of Alaska and Spain, just the tip of the iceberg. The long-term costs of delaying the development of clean energy is massive, perhaps incomprehensible.

You think al-Qaida prints their own money? No, they get it from Saudi oil barons.

Oil has some advantages. Using another source, how many BTU's can you carry around in a gallon jug? Trust me when I tell you that a jug of kerosene packs some power.

But my money is still on the alternative energy sources. Some are quite workable now, and some others show some real promise. Hydrogen. Battery technology is getting better. Ultimately we need to find a sturdy enough bottle to contain the heat of fusion. Different strategies for different applications. And when it's viable, we'll sell it to those other countries.

Also inevitable is the fact that the middle east will fall from its comfortable position. Either later, when the supply runs out (and after they have gouged the world selling a shrinking necessity), or sooner. When we develop the technology that makes it obsolete.

Sure, it has been convenient and easy to harness with centuries-old technologies. But we're smarter now. It's time we acted like it.

Some pretty lazy thinking from the usual sources.

Oil is expensive, it helps create $500 billion problems. Spills damage the food supply.

Oil will fall out of favor around the world as soon as technology leads the way away from it -- hopefully American technology. About 2 dozen cities around the world have already banned IC engines from their city cores.

Oil is a form of energy that carries with it risks to human and other health. So oil *is* killing us.

Unfortunately, most alternative forms of energy also carry risks. Even electricity, while not locally polluting, produces *remote pollution* unless it's solar -- a weak source with current technology, and kinetic (like wind) which is not entirely predictable. Fission's problems are extreme -- most power plants are net energy *losers* -- and disposal of byproducts is a classic NIMBY problem. As Superman points out, fusion answers a lot of these problems, but again, nobody has found a way to manage andcontain it.

Hydrogen fuel cells aren't the instant panacea we thorught 3-4 years ago, but are evolving into viable alternatives in many applications.

I believe we'll get ourselves weaned from oil, but it will be a gradual process -- hopefully driven ultimately by consumer demand rather than legislation or necessity.

True. Unlike yourself I don't have to think too hard to understand the variables here. Lazy for sure.

btw, have you ever designed a solar panel? Have you ever experimented with reversible (PEM) type fuel cells?

Do you think you are the only one to consider the latent costs of hydrocarbon fuels? :rolleyes:

Yeah, you can try to be dismissive, but on a whole;
OIL is still a cheap form of energy.
OIL still will NOT fall out of worldwide favor anytime soon.
OIL still is not trying to kill us.

You think we're gonna believe you just 'cause you post the same thing over again? lol Lemme try..

Oil is not a cheap form of energy
Oil is already falling out of world favour
Oil is killing us (it's just not trying)
:cool: