How Much Worse is the Patriot act that Ex Ord. 9066

[araine901]

What are your thoughts on Bush's patriot act vs. Rosevelts Excutive Order 9066?

[Moneyguy1]

An interesting question. Whereas the internment of 110,000 people because of ethicity would seem to be bizarre given the social climate of today, there was, at the time, considerable fear of a direct invasion on the West Coast and aid could potentially come from imbedded individuals. Not politically correct, but understandable in the fog of war. Remember, for the first 6 to 8 months of the war in the Pacific, the USA was losing.

Given that, the Patriot Act, although not singling out (officially) any ethnic group, it is, in its own way more insidious because what it can do is done by technological means that were not available in 1942. Where, in 1942 only a small number, relative to the country's population was affected, the Patriot Act affects each and every citizen. This may be good or bad, depending on how it is applied. In every conflict, certain actions have to be taken in order for the leadership to give at least the appearance they are "on top of the problem".

I see the logic for both actions, taken in the context of their times. I would hope, if the "terrorist situation" is ever resolved (not likely), that the Patriot Act, like EO9066 would be relegated to the dustbin of history.

[Mulholland]

So far not one abuse, FDR makes Bush look like a piker.

[Yankee911]

Originally posted by Mulholland
So far not one abuse, FDR makes Bush look like a piker.

That's Bullshxt, Mul. I'm sure there are plenty here who will make you a list since you are so blinded.

And as far as FDR and internment, you guys might want to do some research. I'm pretty sure from reading FDR history that he was strongly pressured into interning the Japanese. I don't think he dreamed it up or championed it.

He had battled strong pressure for more than a year from the isolationists and the Republicans to stay out of the war and then Pearl Harbor happened and the picture changed.

Of course, Mul will be happy to post some nutcase website with proof that FDR planned the attack himself and called some of his Subaru buddies in Nippon to make it happen.

There were crazy people then just like Mul. There was a Catholic priest who had a popular radio show that was much like Rush. At first he was supportive of FDR but slowly began a radical agenda of hate--just like Rush and Mul do now. He eventually went over the edge and advertisers pulled support and the show was canceled.

Before Mul points out the similarity between 9/11 and PH---there was a big difference. The meatballs on the planes on Dec. 7th were from the Nippon military.

On 9/11 we were attacked by a group of terrorists composed mostly of Saudi's. FDR declared war on Japan. Bush declared war on an organized group but not Saudi Arabia. One got it, one didn't.

[Yankee911]

Here is a link to a book review of By Order of the President by George C Leef Harvard Press 2001. It spells out some of the pressures FDR faced over Internment.

[araine901]

About ten years ago I had he opportunity to go to Manznar(sp?) the weekend that those who had been interned there made their annual pilgrimage. It was for a class my wife was taking in school at the time. I had no interest in going but the wife wanted me to go with her. It was the most incredible experience. We showed up and all of these Japanese Americans were having a picnic and invited us over. We hate hot-dogs and potato salad together. After some of them walked around and showed us where they had lived and told us stories of how cold it was in the winter and how badly it sucked. The next day we all met at hall in Independence. Many of the locals who lived there at the time told stories of what it was like from their perspective. It was truly enlightening. It is one thing to read about it in school, it was very much another to see it and hear it from their lips.

I don’t give a $hit how much Roosevelt was pressured to sign it. He did sign it; if he didn’t want to he was a fool for caving in to the pressure. Thousands of AMERICANS were locked up in prison camps because of his signature. No distinction between criminal activities only skin color. Yes these were very much prison camps. At least the patriot act fishes out the bad apples and leaves the good apples alone. I know what your going to say Yankee, it does not leave the bad apples alone, and unless you bring up Florence I doubt you can point to any abuses. However I do think Bush is making a huge mistake by denying due process to detainees around the world. I don’t think that has anything to do with the Patriot Act per se. I think the difference is the patriot act has a due process to be followed though the judicial system not an executive decree.

[widebody911]

I hereby coin a new word:

"mull*****"

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Yankee911

Facts are stubborn things Spankee...

FDR wholesale interned and ruined the lives of over 100,000 "Japs", Bush/Ashcroft compile weighty evidence before selectively detaining Muslim illegals and co-conspirators with ties to terrorism.

You are a liar. You are no Republican. You are a foil (even tin) and a fraud.


I am sure, Spankee, if you try hard enough you can find some scum-sucker who makes the case Hitler was pressured to kill Jews and attack capitalism.

[Yankee911]

Originally posted by Mulholland
Facts are stubborn things Spankee...

FDR wholesale interned and ruined the lives of over 100,000 "Japs", Bush/Ashcroft compile weighty evidence before selectively detaining Muslim illegals and co-conspirators with ties to terrorism.

Please provide documentation and not Mulshxt to support both of these "facts". Did you even go read the book review I posted? Ever read any history? This is just more Mulshxt.

So FDR all on his own decided to intern the Japanese. Nope. Go read some fucxing history Multurd.

So everyone at Gitmo is their because of weighty evidence? But we have to protect the public and keep it all secret? You are beyond redick-ulous. Trying to have an adult conversation with a high school freshman mentality is a waste of time.

Or is this just more of your "common knowlege" that you love so well.

[Moneyguy1]

I think highschool freshmen all over the country have just been insulted!!

[araine901]

Yankee; Correct me if I am wrong but Gitmo is for prisoners taken in combat and the ones roudned up here after 9/11 were and are held here in the states ie: Florence.

[Yankee911]

Who the fuxk knows who is in Gitmo--it's all a big secret--just like most everything about the current administration. If you know, you are in a select few.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Yankee911
Who the fuxk knows who is in Gitmo--it's all a big secret--just like most everything about the current administration. If you know, you are in a select few.

Not just Gitmo. There's no way to know who is detained where because there is no appeal from detention, no 'free phone call.' You're kept as long as they want to keep you.

Tens of thousands of aliens here on visas have been called back to INS offices for reviews and in many hundreds of cases, detained incommunicado or deported with no due process. What's the total? Who knows? Maybe not even the Feds. the Patriot Act allows a person to be 'guitly until proved innocent.'

Mul: do you understand the term 'drink the Koolaid?' I'm afraid you're soaking in it.

Read about it if you dare: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20011005_ramasastry.html

-------------edit----------------
I think one thing that needs to be said here is that some of us would like to think America has evolved a bit since the 1940s -- and that we're a bit more considerate of our citizens. I know some would like to set the clock back -- maybe as far as Attila -- but most Americans have slightly higher (and rising) ideals.

[araine901]

Yankee: I was under the impression that you were a fomer right wing FBI agent and may have known WTF was going on. I stand corrected. I now know you do not know WTF is going on? Where they go has to do with what color plane they fly on. Military planes are once color and go to gitmo, JPATS are another and go someplace else. Who picks them up determines what color plane they get to ride on.

Tech: I think we have evolved, have all of the middle eastern persons who are now citizens been rounded up, had all of thier belongings taken and thrown into huts, Men, Women and Childern all tossed into prison camps? As far as people having their visa's checked out, I am all for it. I think where we agree is the lack of due process. I am pretty sure they have the right person the vast majority of the time but they need to process it through the justice system faster.