Taoist thought for the day (again)
 

by popular demand:

Chapter 11 of the Tao Te Ching

Thirty spokes join in one hub
In its emptiness, there is the function of a vehicle
Mix clay to create a container
In its emptiness, there is the function of a container
Cut open doors and windows to create a room
In its emptiness, there is the function of a room

Therefore, that which exists is used to create benefit
That which is empty is used to create functionality

My Giant TCR2 has 32 spokes. My wife's Le Mond Alpe Huez has 20.

Lance Armstrong's bike only had Three.

Coming from just having studied a bunch of Paul's writing ... what's the counterpoint? Paul always pairs stuff together. For example, you're free from sin, so you don't have to do all that stuff anymore. Now, having been freed, go forth and do Good Stuff. Or ... in 1Tim, Paul says that Jesus on the one hand destroyed death and on the other hand brought life (actually makes the explicit "on hand other hand" statement, kind of neat).

He also makes the comparison of us being vessels, which I'm down with -- empty myself of the old stuff, the sinful desires and attractions and what-not -- specifically for the purpose of being filled with the things of God, the fruits of the spirit, etc.

So I'm good with being empty, but if I'm empty, what is my purpose? If I exist, what is my benefit?

Dan

ahh...the Tao doesn't specify purpose. The point is that the usefulness of something is found in its emptyness. In an era where we strive to "fill up" our lives, this is a reminder that a cup is only useful when it is empty.

As a paralell, there is a zen parable about a man who went to speak with a great zen master. When the meeting began, it became obvious that the man was only interested in having the master hear how much he knew, rather than coming to study with the master. The master interrupted and asked if the man wanted some tea. He said yes, and the master began pouring...and kept pouring until tea was running over the top of the cup...and kept pouring until finally the man could contain himself no longer and said, "master, can you not see the cup is full of tea?" To which the master responded, "yes, when the cup was full it could take no more...just as you are coming here today."

So the moral is to "empty your cup" so you can continue to learn.

Nostatic, You're trying too hard.

No, I'm not trying too easy.

Hmm ... ok, so what does it look like to be "empty?"

oh Tabs?

Actually, that was a serious question. I mean, in my church (like so many), we use a lot of silly buzzwords. Faith. Praise. Worship. Glorify. We use these words all the time, and nobody knows what they mean. I lead whole studies just trying to get people to realize what they're saying, so the words aren't just buzzwords, so they actually have some meaning.

So what does it look like to be empty? What attributes will characterize my life, my attitudes, my thoughts? What is it that makes a person empty? Is it purely a knowledge/idea/concept-type emptiness, as in a willingness to learn? I'm struggling with the idea that you'd go to all the trouble to write up a neat little poem that boils down to "Be willing to learn," I guess.


Dan

There are so many times when I look in vain for an empty container that I can use to temporarily store something when in the middle of a project. The ones already full are of no use to me and if I really need an empty one, then I have to dump the contents of a full one out on a newspaper. Then the container fulfills the purpose.

Dan, I was thinking the same thing:)

Bob, I use alot of rattle can tops, Though they were always empty, it was not their emptiness that gave them their initial pourpose. Though it did inspire their second purpose:) If only I could get that in poem form.

As the great spiritual leader has instructed; "You must unlearn what you have learned."




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1090852132.jpg

Dan, this is the rub with "eastern" v. "western" ways of thinking. If I could wrap it up in a nice package and put a bow on it, it wouldn't be Taoism ;)

It is very "western" to think, "OK, what does this mean...I need a list of things that fit this and tell he who/what/where/how." To me that is exactly *not* the point. The chapter is about understanding that there needs to be space for things to work. And that space might be in your understanding....or in a lack of *trying* to figure it out.

I'm not trying to be evasive, and I'm just a neophyte with this stuff. But if I were to write down a list of "10 attributes of being empty", that would be in direct opposition to what the chapter is saying (at least to me). Does that make sense?

That doesn't mean that you sit around and do nothing...but you might want to do that for a couple of minutes. And instead of focusing on the nice glaze job on your coffee mug, look at the emptiness before you fill it. And after you fill it, notice the hole in the handle.

You'll be glad you did :)

Ok, the light sort of came on. Not like "a ha!!" but more like slowly flickering to light. Just got the "you're trying too hard" joke too. Boy, now I feel kind of silly. Thanks for spelling it out for me.

FWIW, Zen never clicked for me. Every single poem had to be explained. Intuitive thought as a whole just never came together for me. (sigh) I'll keep working on it.

Dan

Nostatic, you're getting colder

Oh, sure it did. If you enjoy your 911 a whole bunch and you just can't quite put your finger on it to describe the whole Porsche ownership and driving thing with the engine noise and all, then you just get it. No book, no school.

A sense. A mystique. An auora. A mood. All things not tangible. Essence. If you can feel all these things and not want to brag or play some role, you're there.

The first thing that popped into my head is that a bell is a cup until it is struck.

Good point, Zeke. Except I can't control it. I mean, I can't be an intuitive thinker when I want to be. Oh, wait, I bet that's part of the puzzle too, isn't it...

well aren't you all helpful and stuff...


anywho, I says to Mabel, I says...

Thank U for the compliment....

Sounds like that R GRuppe jibberish to me....becoming one with the car..... is that some kind of New Age Religion....

It's like when Jackie O talks about hitting the wall with the original BB and not the replacement BB2 mind you, it becomes a zen moment....

As Freud said, "Sometimes a Porsche is just a Porsche." and dddddat dats all folks.

Sorry Zeke I'm not trying to dis you... but the Gruppe is sometimes just ludicrious with the pretentious BS they come up with....as the Scarecrow said, "If only they had a brain."

Yes

Sounds like this is also part of the yin/yang thing. Or perhaps the male/female thing so prevalent in spanish cultures. To illustrate, what about a battering ram? It has no emptiness, and gets its usefulness from its density. An empty cup is useful for its capacity to accommodate. That's nice, but it represents only one set of purposes. There is at least one other set of purposes for which the ability to accommodate is not useful.

Hmm ... battering ram ... I bet those aren't covered by zen. That's violent, zen isn't. Done.

well, remember the Shaolin monks kicked some serious butt in their day...

Part of the meaning in the poem is to illustrate the underlying nature of all things, of all structures and forms. Zen and the Tao aim to break us out of functional thinking and to see the formless nature of all things, to bring us back to the Tao, the source. Granted, Zen and the Tao are different philosophies, but the goal is the same: to bring us back to the source of all things. There are also many different versions/interpretations of the Tao De Ching, some of which are harder to understand than others.

All in all, its not a difficult philosophy to grasp. In many ways the Tao, and Zen, can be thought of in a western, God-like way. Alas:
- God creates all things, good and bad. He is the source
- All actions and creations come from Gods will
- Emotion, logic, concepts, our human bodies, and mans various creations, are without substance and purpose as they are all of Gods creations, not our own.
- Alas, our lives are best spent basking in the glow of the source of life, rather than spending our days building, thinking, arguing, feeling, killing, and doing.


Like the little stream
Making its way
Through the mossy crevices
I, too, quietly
Turn clear and transparent.
- Ryokan Taigu (1758-1831)

See? All very simple. Ah shoot, I've got to get back to work or the boss will kill me.

Eastern Philosophers follow the Tao de Ching.

Western capitalists follow the "ka Ching".......

So in the end, it's a Ching thing.....

On a more serious note...what Matt says in essence (if I understand) is that since God creates everything, then man can do nothing but "rediscover" what God has created. herefore, everything in the universe is there to be discovered, both good and bad. So, if we take the idea that stem cell research could possibly lead to the cure of some terrible ailments, didn't God put that element there to be discovered and used to man's benefit?

Just curious since this has become such a divisive issue in some circles.

First, I think the Tao suggests that we accept death as a part of life.
Second, I think the Tao also suggests that no matter what we attempt do, be it good or bad in our eyes, the cycle of life will be followed and will eventually return to balance.

Those who wish to change the world
According with their desire
Cannot succeed.

The world is shaped by the Way;
It cannot be shaped by the self.
Trying to change it, you damage it;
Trying to possess it, you lose it.


This is one of the main arguments against the Tao and Buddhism because they can be seen as inhumane. Emotion is really seen as a human creation as is seen as unimportant in the big scheme of things. Basically, it says, acknowledge it but do not act on it. Buddhism has much the same belief. Therefore, when it comes to diseases and dying and pain, the Tao doesn't have much sympathy for the involved human emotions other than to feel the pain as a human, then come back to the core understanding.


Men flow into life, and ebb into death.

Some are filled with life;
Some are empty with death;
Some hold fast to life, and thereby perish,
For life is an abstraction.

Those who are filled with life
Need not fear tigers and rhinos in the wilds,
Nor wear armour and shields in battle;
The rhinoceros finds no place in them for its horn,
The tiger no place for its claw,
The soldier no place for a weapon,
For death finds no place in them.

So does Taoism support determinism? It sounds like a fate-based belief, per se. Do I have free will? Does it matter?

Nature itself is inhumane. It does not choose sides.

Man and other creatures either learn to work their way around the limitations placed in their way by nature or perish, and must also accept the fact that, to nature, individuals do not exist.