Hmm, Back to the title of this thread...Does evil exist? It's relative. Perhaps our actions are natural no matter how trivial or heinous.

Good and evil are what WE make it.

Why???

Anyway, my big disagreement is with folks who claim to be doing "God's/Allah's/Fred's works" as an excuse to annoy, proselytize, harrass, impede, hurt, torture, and murder other people. Perhaps it's too Libertarian of me, but I'd like just once to see people keep it to their damned selves, and leave me (and like-minded folk) alone.

Superman, you seem to manage to have faith without shoving it down everyone else's throats...something a number of the other folks on this board need to learn how to do.

Oh, and here's something for you guys to chew over: some of the things you might define as "good" would definitely fall in my category for "evil".

I don't believe in God.

But, I am highly intelligent, very rational, and an overall pretty nice guy. I am not evil, though I lack God. I don't discuss "my religion" with anyone as it is my personal decision (my wife, and children, are Catholic). I am very happy.

I love and respect other people, animals, and nature. I also respect other religions and faiths, no matter how "wacko" or "irrational" they may seem.

Evil is part of human nature.

Here's what I mean: God's will is a cop out to me. God's will has nothing at all to do with man's will to function when man has all power over nearly everything on earth except for weather, earthquakes, fire, etc. - which are natural elements and which can to an extent also be controlled by man. Actions seek responsibility which should revert back to the person committing the action - not intangibles such as "God." Example: you hit a home run. Well, that was done by your own strength and ability to get the ball over the wall - no one else. Another example: you're in a traffic accident that kills someone's child. You're drunk. That's your responsibility. No God put that beer in your hand, nor the keys, nor the gear shift, etc.

So when I hear arguments about an almighty, my thoughts immediately go to man. Humanity has ultimate control over its own fate. Being "smart" has nothing to do with it, whether you're pro-God or not. Being "responsible" has everything to do with it. Taking responsibility for one's actions, whether good or bad, and not shouldering it on some entity that may not be real, is the first step toward true human responsibility.

Who said anything about god's will? I am speaking mearly about the existence thereof. My point has nothing to do with whether god knows/cares/or influences anything about your life. Simply the acceptance that we are not the pinnacle of life.

And I answered your question using the word "responsibility." In fact, you answered your own question, lendaddy. A pinnacle of life influences life itself. So the real question is are you or are you not the pinnacle of your own life? Is it you, or is it something else that controls your life?

more people have been killed in the name of "God" than probably any other reason in the history of the planet.

religion and morality exist separately

Please provide a secular moral code that you find superior to the 10 Commandments. Thank you.

The Hippocratic oath.

The three Laws of Robotics.

Et al.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/HumanistCode.shtml

Hippocratic Oath: Nice. Indeed an elegant rule. Doesn't seem to be as comprehensive a guide for daily life as the Ten Commandments, but ok...

Asimov: Strikingly similar to the libertarian credo if not overly simplistic. Works for robots. Guess I should have qualifed my question a bit better. Apologies.

Your Link: I dutifully clicked through and proceeded to skim through 4+ pages of feverish, defensive ranting. Nowhere amonst the non-sequiters and Escher-like logic did I find a moral code.

"on-ramp" posits that religion and morality exist separately. I'm just asking for some backbone to support the statement. Respectfully...

Edit: Actually I agree 100% with on-ramp. Religion and morality can indeed exist separately. But again - a better moral code than the 10 Commandments, please? Or here's one to bake your noodle: Fine, you don't believe in God. Taking God out of the picture, can you find a more concise and/or profound code to live by? Am I being devil's advocate tonight? YUP. I've had a LOOOOT to drink (Beer, approved by good Christian monks for centuries...)

OK, do you want a moral code or a program to run? Thinking for yourself is tough...

Heh heh! I couldn't have said it better myself. :)

So you consider the Ten Commandments a program? Overly prohibitive? Too complicated?

Like I said, I'll bet on your horse and take "God" out of the equation, just so you can't play the 'cramming religion down your throat' card and I'm not playing the "godless liberal hedonist" card... Ten Commandments aren't elegant?

The ten commandments are not original, novel or unique to the semitic people.

They existed before moses claimed to have gotten them from a burning bush. If you were to learn about anthropology and other cultures you will find that not killing your neighbor or coveting his wife was taboo long before moses ever lived.

I wasn't specifically referring to the commandments here, just the fact that you're looking for a "comprehensive a guide for daily life".

There's nothing in the commandments about rape, assault, sexual abuse, child molestation, or other things that clearly fall under under the category of "doing harm". When you start to codify laws against specific behaviors, you end up having to cover all the bases. "Do no harm" is truly elegant.

Further, all who profess to be Christian are violating commandments 1 and 2 (no other gods and graven images--I don't buy that BS about Jesus and God being the same thing) and I'm willing to bet most of you violate commandment 4 on a weekly basis.

Someone once simplified moraal code to the following and I kind of like it:

Don't hurt each other

When you stop to think about it, that just about covers everything

Money, I like it.

Golden Rule, basically...which now that I think of it, is indeed non-secular and quite elegant.

Back to our regularly scheduled "Does evil exist?"...

First define "exist," because there are many forms of "evil" in our world.

By my definition or the word, bush and most of his staff is evil.

Nah, I doubt Satan would approve of a political party that saves 50,000,000 Arabs, believes women's lives should not be destroyed by lying to them that abortion is birth control, does not approve of homosexual "marriage," uses class-warfare, hate and race-baiting as their platform...Nor would God approve of a party that hates Israel, loves and supports murderous tyrants just because they are communist, or a party that attacks Christianity at every available opportunity.

you're a classical idealogue

Etymology: French idéologue, back-formation from idéologie
1 : an impractical idealist : THEORIST
2 : an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular ideology

it's true the world is ****ed up but which dictatorship are you going to "save" first? You can't go around using your superpower military aggression to bring deaths to thousands, destruction beyond words, all with our tax payer money, for your own cause....a cause that has changed pre-war (WMDs).

you're still missing the whole point, if Americans knew the reason for Iraq was to "liberate" the people and not for "imminent threats" , WMDs as we were told, the war would have gotten no support whatsoever and the W would be have been impeached.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear". --Thomas Jefferson

Great quote lee, but I imagine you will soon be slammed by the 'american is a christian nation' croud.

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

I posit the description of "sinful" is highly rational, in fact it is secular humanistic rationalism that has inflicted the greatest attrocities in the history of mankind...100,000,000 +/- in the last 100 years.

"Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac? He lays awake at night wondering if there really is a dog." - UKNOWN

One for Todd:
"My karma ran over my dogma"

btw, did anyone see the movie Dogma? Damn fine film...

Saw it last night with Isabo and her husband.
Very good film! Much, much better than any of us were expecting. Almost made religion tolerable ;)

I was just there to see Salma Hayek bouncing around in satin bra and panties for 10 seconds. Needless to say, that was great - but the rest of the movie definitely exceeded expectations. Ended up staying up till dawn discussing religion with an atheist buddy.

DTW: Your discussion with an athiest buddy brings the following ditty to mind:

A fairy who loved in Kartuhm
Brought a lesbian up to his room
They argued all night
Over who had the right
To to what and with which
And to whom.


No offense meant to anyone...

I don't see what Hillary Clinton and McGreevy have to do with this discussion.

News flash, this just in from Cam's Department of "God loves Liberals"...

...Bush's own church thinks he shouldn't have gone to war.

http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1686

Actually, looking at the United Methodist Church's Social Principles (you call it "class-warfare" and "race-baiting" instead), there is a lot of "Conservative" stuff that is difficult to reconcile with that Church's teaching. Just as it is with Catholic teaching, and presumably with most denominations' teaching. There is more info here.

Of course, all denominations are run by liberals, right? Apostate liberals probably.

Moses got the 10 commandments from God on Mt. Sinai. The burning bush was where God called Moses to go to Egypt to free the Israelites who were enslaved by the Egyptians.

One of my members wrote a pretty good article on modern day evil. Interesting that I find out weeks later that the author went to my same highschool, small world. Here is the link.

http://www.peoplesnation.com/fulltext.php?id=1003