Does evil exist?
 

Does evil exist?

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.



This dialogue has been attributed to Albert Einstein, but devalued at snopes...Still an interesting perspective.

This basically sums up the creation v. evolution debate...The evolutionists are being smashed and, therefore, the creationists are being silenced.

I've heard something like this in reference to art and color. Black is not a color and white is light.

Hmmm...

Mull: what do you do for a living? If at all, you're one hell of a researcher.

Re: Does evil exist?
 

how in the world does that story have *anything* to do with the creation/evolution debate?

Drugs, man. Lots of drugs.

But only the prescription kind, anything else would be a sin. :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Does evil exist?
 

All I thought here was: ...you're just an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect the bill...

Now, I wonder from where that came?

I am getting a headache.

that's a big twinkie...

Evolution and creationism are not in conflict. God can do anything He likes and take as long as He wants, even experimenting along the way.

To claim otherwise is to claim to know the mind of God. ANd that, according to St. Augustine, is not possible.

End of argument.

Re: Re: Does evil exist?
 

The parallel is the utter devastation the intelligent designers have wrought on the macroevolution theorists.

End of argument is right...evolution (macro if it will make you happy) is a failed theory still being shoved down the young skulls full of mush as fact, most often as a strategy to debunk the existence of God.

The debate is not over and will continue until judgment day.

Studied finance in college. Moved to Hollyweird to pursue modeling, got sucked into the black hole of acting/bartending. Got side-tracked by drugs (preferably non-prescription), got sober and found the Savior. Been a medical terminologist for the last 5 years...So research is sorta my forte...To make a long story short. :D

umm...right. a) there is no logical parallel and b) there hasn't been "utter devastation", just the usual disagreements. You're not trained as a scientist, are you?

For someone who claims to be so steeped in faith, you sure seem desperate for "proof" that you are right, and have a seemingly unquenchable need to show the error of everyone else's ways.

NoStatic

Scientists are actually the most likely to believe in some kind of intelligence behind the universe. They deal with its beauty every day.

Fundamental Christianity and other religions have to categorize, pigeonhole, and quantify everything into neat little piles that fit a preset notion of how they think things should be, not as they are. Programmed, unable to act or react outside a narrow set of predetermined options, either unwilling or unable to think independently. In a word, Robots. The Jesuits had it right: "Give us a child for the first six years and he is ours for life".

I have news for folks who think this way:.....The earth IS round, and goes around the sun. Galileo was correct, although branded a heretic. (oops he did get an apology..abeit a bit late). And, the earth IS a bit older than the Middle Ages scholars thought it was.

Like I said, God can take His own sweet time and do things any way HE likes. It's OK with me. After all, weren't we made in His image? Are we basically curious creatures that seem to desire knowledge (well, at least most of us)? Then it is possible that God is therefore a curious individual that also likes to tinker and explore. Far be it from me to limit God's abilities or nature.

I like to think that God has a sense of humor. Not only did God create the aardvark and armidillo, but he gave us some other wonderful creatures that post regularly on this bulletin board!!!

Lighten up, fer cryin out loud...

I have to agree with Mul on this one.. With all the holes in evoloution theory, you can hardly call it fact - it just pains most intellectuals way too much to admit they don't know and will likely never know..

Last time I looked into it, it would have taken 18,000,000,000 years for the Earth to have evolved all the life that flourishes on this ever cooling ball of molten rock.. of course, that's not rock-solid science either (lame pun intended, sort of)

When you get into theoretical physics, evoloution does not work at all, while creation works beautifully.. and of course, biologists only know what physicists teach them. :p

Which "God" are we referring to here? there are thousands.

Religion and science should NOT be mixed. They're like oil and water. One is rooted in experimentation and observation, the other in faith and that which cannot be seen. To combine them is foolish and inappropriate.

OOH, NOOO. I can't wait to see what comes of this.:eek:

Well there's god shamgod. That's two right there:)

Mulholland, well put! All that is needed is child-like faith!

"Religion and science should NOT be mixed"

I won't tell John Travolta or L. Ron Hubbard if you don't.

Having been overcome for many years by a love for wisdom (philo-sophia) I struggled with this apparent conundrum.

-God created all things
-God is all good
-God is all powerful
-evil exists

I resolved the dissonance, but not with the analogy the student uses.

But I had the most fun with the Kantian form of St. Anselm's proof of the existence of God.

-I am thinking of a being than which there can be no greater (common definition of God)
-If the being I am thinking of does not exist, then I am not thinking of a being than which there can be no greater
---Therefore, God exists.

Now, this seems like nonsense at first blush. Most will dismiss it out of hand. Various bases are thrown out as justification for dismissal, but if you examine the criticisms thoroughly, they fall away one by one. Unless someone can wrap their mind around this one more effectively than Emmanuel Kant (good luck), several weeks of analysis will lead to the conclusion that this is basically another definition of God. The Being whose essence necessitates His existence.

Oh and I also see no conflict between evolution and creation. Any apparent conflict is evidence that there is stuff we don't understand. Now there's an understatement. Heck, there's stuff that, even in the face of full disclosure of all the facts and principles...we still would not understand. I think it's pretty presumptuous for either side to pretend they have enough evidence to reach a conclusion. Like boisterous children, only tall and hairy and wearing big kids' clothes.

Can we do a separate thread for Creation/Evolution? That's a fun argument that we haven't screamed at each other about in at least a couple of months, and I'd love to do that again. :)

As to evil, I've managed to reduce the dissonance a little more simply. Evil is a direct product of free will. If we have the freedom to choose our own fate, we will choose to do Bad Things just like we will choose to do Good Things. God did two things to "create evil": (1) He gave us the ability to choose. (2) He defined some things as "good" and others as "evil," and recognized that evil things can be done just like good things. Rebelling against God, for example, is defined as "evil," in the context of this discussion. For a well-written philosophical discussion of free will, check out "Following Gandalf," by Matthew Dickerson (Amazon: Used, $6). He lays out the arguments for free will and evil quite nicely, much more eloquently than I could manage.

Cheers,

Dan

"I refuse to proof that i exist", says god, "for proof denies faith and without faith i'm nothing."
"But the babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it?" says man. "It could never have evolved by pure chance. it proves that you exist, and therefore, by your own argument, you don't. q.e.d.!"
"Oh dear", says god. "i hadn't thought of that", and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Bob, you missed my point. I wasn't saying that scientists can't believe in some aspect of creation theory. And I don't believe that science and religion can't mix. I was trying to point out the lack of logical/critical thinking represented in the jump from cute story to "evolution is wrong."

I *am* trained as a scientist, and I *am* able to find an acceptable middle ground between creation and evolution. I *believe* that a higher power (pick your favorite) put things into motion and continues to have a hand in things. I also *believe* that this higher power as you said, gave us a brain and a sense of humor (well, some of us).

That is what I *believe*, but I can't prove it. I makes sense to me given my life experience. If anyone else doesn't believe it that's fine. Since logical arguments CANNOT be applied to this case (other than to dispute some of the technical facts/assumptions), to use "logic" to "prove" either pure creation or pure evolution is in my mind falacious.

Thom, one of the things that make me shake my head in disbelief is the MOUNTAIN of immensely obvious evidence that one has to disregard in order the be an atheist. Sure, I agree that faith is faith, and not logic or science. And it is a choice for each of us. But again, the evidence that God exists must be too obvious to see. For some.

Not to rain on parades here but the acknowledgment of A god isn't "good enough" for any religion. Simply accepting a greater being is easy if not logical beyond argument, but what does this do for you (assuming you believe in an afterlife)? Nada.

Sure, if you believe in a god.

When I attended Catholic mass each week for 20+ years I thought the same thing.

Re: Does evil exist?
 

So an agnostic or atheist must be evil. That's narrow minded.

Re: Re: Does evil exist?
 

Agreed.

Re: Re: Does evil exist?
 

consider the source

Quote: "...according to the principal that our works define who we are"

This is where the problem starts. Who's principal is this?

I think that was my elementary school principal.

Too bad the writer of the cute story didn't know the difference between principal and prinicple...

It's simple really: because we can't prove or seem to be comfortable with our evolutionary past, we pass our past to someone else. Problem is, that someone else cannot even prove him/itself which gives that someone no right to pontificate what or whom created us. So we're back to square one.

I think the invention of higher beings comes from a core habit of man not taking responsibility for himself.

Ironically womankind does not seem to have this same argument - at least on this board. Could that be because women can indeed create life?

I find it amusing that there is more evidence for the existence of WMD's in Iraq than there is evidence for the existence of God.

I remember when I thought I was intelligent/enlightened proclaiming no higher being. Damn did I feel smart:)

It's not about being smart. It's about responsibility.

"It's about responsibility."

Ya lost me, please elaborate. How is it being reponsible(and for whom/what) to deny a higher being?

I got a lot of respect for you BSJ, but I'm sticking to my story. I think that proof of God's existence is so obvious and so ubiquitous that, with eyes shut, in a dark, silent room, a rational creature can reach that conclusion in seconds. As long as the mind is empty of what I can best describe as 'criticism.' Rene Descartes did it.

Oh, and in the argument above, the principle that our works define who we are does not need to come into play. God is all powerful. God is all good. God created the world. The world has evil in it. The logical fallacy is already there. How can an all-powerful, all-good creature create evil? He could have created the world in any shape (all powerful) but chose to create or permit evil.

But God's thrust is toward the good. And He cannot get anything moving in that direction if everything is good. The evil is necessary in order for good to occur, or be chosen. Without evil, the world is void of this entire value scale.

Or maybe He did not create evil, but rather we create evil with our decisions. And maybe that stems from some kind of delegation of divinity. Maybe we're given that little option as a training bike. Maybe we're little Gods-In-Training.

Women are hugely more inclined to attend church.