Al-Sadr surrenders!

[djmcmath]

No matter which side of the aisle you sit on, peace is good news for all of us! It looks like Al-Sadr will disband his army and leave the super-holiest of mosques, in order to join the "mainstream political process."

You could certainly argue that the means weren't optimal: I guess somebody finally put their nuts on the table and said "We don't give a rat's petut about your holy shrine, we have the firepower to forcibly remove you from that hole, and we will desecrate it if we have to." Do the ends (peace) justify the means (threats of violence in a holy place)?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/18/iraq.main/index.html


Dan

[cmccuist]

Just wondering, what if Sharon were leading a rag tag army of militants and was getting worked pretty badly and then ran into a temple for sanctuary. Would we be asking this question?

Once you take over a mosque or a temple and use it for refuge to keep from getting arrested or killed or to keep your illegal cause going, I'm thinking that structure ceases to be holy.

[RallyJon]

This whole idea of not attacking shrines--with all the baddies hiding in the shrines (of course!)--makes no sense. In case you haven't noticed the pattern every time a Marine takes a leak in the sand, he's condemned for desecrating something or other. Go in fast and hard, get the job done at minimal cost to American lives, and get the hell out.

In the long run a few flattened Mosques that were obviously used as fortresses and bases by the bad guys will be forgiven faster than 150k American soldiers pussyfooting around for the next several years.

We've already blown up and killed so much that it's not like all the offended Iraqis will suddenly forgive us if we politely spare a building or two.

[island911]

Originally posted by RallyJon
. . .In the long run a few flattened Mosques that were obviously used as fortresses and bases by the bad guys will be forgiven faster than 150k American soldiers pussyfooting around for the next several years.
.. .

I think you are correct. Though isn't it that (go ahead, flatten it) call made by the new Iraq govt. ?

[djmcmath]

Actually, iirc, there was a big thing a few weeks ago about how Marines were rebuilding and repairing holy sites (like mosques and what-not) in some towns. Morale of local Iraqis skyrocketed, far more than could have been predicted. This is one of those cultural differences -- they really care about their mosques. While most of the rest of us view it as a building, perhaps even a nice, well engineered, pretty-looking building, it's a holy site and a symbol of their religion, so desecrating it is a pretty much unforgiveably crime.

Either way, Al Sadr's backing down. Be happy?

Dan

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
. . ..

Either way, Al Sadr's backing down. Be happy?

Dan

Definitely happy about that.
My understanding is that Al Sadr's was losing all credibility, with the Iraqi populous, by hiding behind the skirt of holy mosque.


I just hope that " joining the mainstream political process" means that he will be tried and executed.

[cmccuist]

Originally posted by island911
I just hope that " joining the mainstream political process" means that he will be tried and executed.

I would like to see the Iraqis double up and do both Saddam and Sadr on the same day. If they could get Osama that would be like hitting for the terrorist cycle.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by cmccuist
Just wondering, what if Sharon were leading a rag tag army of militants and was getting worked pretty badly and then ran into a temple for sanctuary. Would we be asking this question?

Once you take over a mosque or a temple and use it for refuge to keep from getting arrested or killed or to keep your illegal cause going, I'm thinking that structure ceases to be holy.

I agree, once the mosque is used as a shield, it should no longer be considered a shrine. I mean, even churches are supposed to be "sanctuary" of one sort or another. But using a church as a place to hide and shoot from is a sure way of getting Tuesday-night Bingo cancelled...for good!

Perhaps this is W's way of fighting a "sensitive" war...without having to annouce the fact!

Randy

[mikester]

I recall stories of fallen soldiers of various conflits and nationalities going to a church behind enemy lines to avoid capture and claiming sanctuary.

That sound about right?

[rcecale]

Originally posted by cmccuist
I would like to see the Iraqis double up and do both Saddam and Sadr on the same day. If they could get Osama that would be like hitting for the terrorist cycle.

Sounds like a great Tri-fecta! And then...throwing Kerry's chance at the Presidency into the trash heap would make it the perfect Quinella!!!

Randy

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by djmcmath
it's a holy site and a symbol of their religion, so desecrating it is a pretty much unforgiveably crime.

Right Dan...Every one of their mosques, they say, is the holiest shrine of Islam...They have absolutely no problem murdering Christians and Jews (even Muslims), raping women and giving them clitorectomies, treating women like dogs, and planning murder from Mosques, but the moment we call them to the table their "holy mosque" becomes off limits.

They desecrate their mosques daily by plotting murder, teaching hate and harboring terrorists...Where is the Muslim outrage?

I do not care if it is a church, temple or mosque...It is those who hide behind it who desecrate it, not those who rout out the vermin who inhabit it.

[Mule]

Bingo Mul. Remeber the abbey at Montecasino. We bombed it to smithereens after the Germans began using it as a fort. And over there (ME), if mohammed's camel pissed on a rock, the site is holy. Quit with all the hand wringing & whip ass, then we can talk about "joining the mainstream political process."

[cmccuist]

Originally posted by mikester
I recall stories of fallen soldiers of various conflits and nationalities going to a church behind enemy lines to avoid capture and claiming sanctuary.

That sound about right?

I can understand a guy sheilding himself in a church to keep from getting captured or killed. I'm having more of a problem with a group holing up until it's time to attack again.

I guess that goes to the heart of what sanctuary is. I don't think the Catholics grant it to anyone who shows up for any reason. I think there are a specific set of circumstances that apply.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by Mule
And over there (ME), if mohammed's camel pissed on a rock, the site is holy. Quit with all the hand wringing & whip ass, then we can talk about "joining the mainstream political process."

Do we learn nothing from the past?...This P.C. "sensitive" warfare has a historical track record of exacerbating problems and military casualties...From JFK and Johnson crippling our military in Vietnam, to allowing OBL to escape in respect to "Ramadan"...We could have killed Bin Ladin (which I think we did anyway) and paved Vietnam if the politicians didn't hamstring our warriors from doing what they do best.

And, so we don't muddy focus, it is the Democrats who have a pattern of aiding and abetting the enemy by attacking our own military and insisting on political correctness.

[island911]

I don't think the Catholics grant it to anyone who shows up for any reason. I think there are a specific set of circumstances that apply.

{insert off-color Catholic preist joke here}


Mike, I think there is a difference between seeking sanctuary, and seeking a place to shoot from.

[Mule]

Mul, you speak the truth. If these guys shoot from a mosque & we blow it up, it might take a few mosques for word to get around (they got plenty of 'em) but they will stop hiding in them, not to save the mosque but because the tactic isn't working any more.

[djmcmath]

You know, I was hoping this wouldn't deteriorate into an "I hate Muslims" thread. (sigh) My point was just some simple rejoicing.

Anyhow, I am curious what he means by joining the "mainstream political process." My fear is that he'll start taking part in the political process as a fundamentalist Shiite Muslim whose only dream in life is to expel the infidels -- which would include the Iraqi government established by the dirty capitalist pigs of America.

But that's purely conjecture.

I suspect he won't be hung, stoned, or castrated for his freedom fighting, despite the fact that most Iraqis disagreed with his position. I just have a nasty hunch that defending your freedom against foreign invaders doesn't count as a crime under the Iraqi laws right now.

Issues of the legality and incredible unpopularity of bombing a mosque aside, I'm glad to see him surrender. This should halt the majority of violence in Iraq right now, right? Does this make Iraq less of a quagmire? Is there still any organized resistance?

Dan

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by djmcmath
You know, I was hoping this wouldn't deteriorate into an "I hate Muslims" thread. (sigh) My point was just some simple rejoicing.

[fintstone]

Rejoicing?? More like a national day of mourning for the Dems...sorta like Iraq fell or when Saddam was captured. Guess it is the old "enemy of my enemy" thing. Remember..they call the terrorists modern "minutemen."..while the true representatives of that legacy, our military men and women, are reviled.

[Mule]

Dan said:
"You know, I was hoping this wouldn't deteriorate into an "I hate Muslims" thread. (sigh) My point was just some simple rejoicing."

Point out the part where hating muslims took place Dan. Maybe it's just me but I hate anybody who kills Americans. And if religion is used as the justification then add that religion to the list also. To emphasize my point, al sadr is still holding his position inside fort ali (formerly the mosque of ali) & shooting at our guys. Apparently it was just one more lie. I say he needs to die. And it needs to happen with the least possible risk to American soldiers.


Issues of the legality and incredible unpopularity of bombing a mosque aside, I'm glad to see him surrender.

There are no legal issues & he didn't surrender! Bust his a$$.