Kerry's actual testimony about Viet Vets

[techweenie]

It wasn't what's been portrayed here several dozen times by the Swifties, slimers and haters...

The whole thing is too big to paste, but here's the salient stuff:

------------------excerpt-------------

...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

------------end of excerpt----------

So did you see a blanket condemnation of US soldiers? I didn't. What Kerry actually said is that brutal acts did happen, they weren't rare, and that they were seemingly condoned.

The young'uns here need to read up on Lt. William Calley who was prosecuted for actions similar to those committed by many, many other soldiers. The key difference in the My Lai massacre is not how or why it happened, but that one of the soldiers spoke up about it being wrong.

The other Kerry, Bob, eventually needed to purge as well and discussed his personal involvement in acts he was not proud of. But you can read up on that eleswhere.

It's not only anecdotal, either, in one highly praised action, the 9th Division in Kien Hoa province killed 11,000 and recovered 748 weapons.

[Moneyguy1]

Tech:

It is called "selective recall". This is a tactic older than time itself. Both sides have used it over the years, generally the side that has the least to stand on in real meaty issue stuff.

Read the opposition's words, parse out a portion that, by itself, seems to make that opposition (a) look stupid (b) look inconsistent or better yet (c) look insane.

The "True Believers" on the side of the camp doing the parsing will believe every word of what is written. After all, how could the (fill in party name here) do anything that dispicable? And even if they are astute enough to understand that the statements are less than honest, well, the ends (election or relection of (fill in the blank)) justifies the means.

This is not fun and games, kiddies. We are about to choose an individual that, for better or worse, represents the Country to the rest of the world. It is important that this individual, when using other people's words, makes certain that they are not taken out of context or twisted to portray the other parties as something they are not. In the international environment, that can lead to dire results. We cannot alienate the entire world and expect to survive.

Remember the two horse horserace and how it was reported by the losing country: "We came in second while our opponent came in next to last".

Of course, to those "True Believers", this means nothing as long as their choice is the one that wins.

Muddy the waters, claim you didn't do it and hope for the best.

[Mulholland]

"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others, in that I shot in free-fire zones, fired .50-caliber machine bullets, used harass-and-interdiction fire, joined in search-and-destroy missions and burned villages."

Meet the Press on April 18, 1971

edit- "Nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning."

[techweenie]

Mul: here's a bulletin for you. We were trained to use .50 cal. against combatants but to have a 'reason' handy, since it was against the Geneva Convention.

I guess you don't understand the concept of a 'free-fire zone.' They were exactly that, shooting galleries. Man, women, children, dogs; cattle. All legitimate targets in free-fire zones.

Search-and-destroy missions were usually area (village) actions that employed 'scorched earth' tactics. and our troops routinely set fire to hooches. Because the enemy was not in uniform and because villagers supporting the Cong could not be told apart from other non-combatants, tens of thousands were killed. There was a popular shirt at the time that said "Kill them all. Let God decide."

Look at the testimony of Bob Kerry. Look at the testimony of the 150 vets in Detroit that J. Kerry speaks of.

Do you think brutality is only wrong if committed by the other side?

You, Mul are a moral relativist. But morals are not relative, they are absolute. Immoral actions, performed independently or under command of superior officers are wrong. Kerry did things he regretted -- almost immediately, it seems. Thousands of other soldiers in Vietnam did the same things, and worse. They were ordered to. Kerry had the moral courage to stand up and say these actions were not consistent with the America he believes in.

Originally posted by techweenie
It wasn't what's been portrayed here several dozen times by the Swifties, slimers and haters...

Little early to be hitten the bong, don't you think?

[Mulholland]

You can thank Kennedy, Johnson and Kerry for aiding and abetting the quagmire...We could have won that war if it weren't for limp-wristed socialists who had a sympathetic heart for the utopian ideal.

Nixon won the war...until Democrats stabbed him and the Vietnamese people in the back.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Mulholland
Nixon won the war...until Democrats stabbed him and the Vietnamese people in the back.

I guess we have to recall all those history books now...

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Mark Wilson
Little early to be hitten the bong, don't you think?

Well, there's another cogent and persuasive argument from the usual source.

[Mule]

To all you high thinking, touchy feely libs out there, what about the hundreds of thousands of Viet Namese & Cambodian citizens that were murders by your commie comrades after we decided to leave rather than win?

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by techweenie
I guess we have to recall all those history books now...

Who violated the Paris Peace Accords (Kerry's promotion)?...What political party let the South flap in the wind and get slaughtered, after said Kerry promoted Paris Peace Accords were violated?

[Seahawk]

What are you smoking, Tech, Pol Pot? Kerry impunged his fellow soilders after admitting to participating in the very same "atrosities". How many ways do you want to slice this: War is hell, I participated in that hell, but I'm back now so I can tattle on my fellow warriors, who are still in hell? Do as I say NOW, not what I F'ing DID!?! Oh, and the Brass made me do it...
I will reiterate: The man went to war and returned, his actions after returning are what gall me. To think otherwise is a signal of difficulty.
Lastly, I am not attacking you personally, I just disagree with you...there is a big difference.

[Mule]

Lynn, the commie comrades statement comes from your boy John Kerry's picture in the war museum in Hanoi (formerly the museum of war crimes) in a meeting with the commies. He is referred to by the commies as "a hero of the revoloution."

As for me (age 51), that great president, Richard M Nixon stopped the draft two numbers away from my lottery number. Did I want to go, hell no. Would I've dodged the draft, Hell no.

As for all the US dead, blame that on another great democrat, LBJ. You can't win a war by pussyfooting around. Ya' gotta' break some eggs to make an omlet. This is the lesson of Viet Nam! Don't f*ck around with our soldiers' lives. Monkey stomp them then come back home.

[Mulholland]

Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.

Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.

Respectfully,

Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Robert Anderson, EN2, USN (Ret.)
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. “Lord Mort” Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry “Buddy” Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert “Friar Tuck” Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Dennis Spranger
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. “Waz” Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN (Ret.)*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*

Ex Officio (other military):

Ross Barker, Capt. USN (Ret.)
Joe Cantrell, Lt.jg, USNR
Allan Clapp, ETR3, USN
George Clatterbuck, CMSgt. USAF, Ret.
Tony DeLuna
David Desiderio, Cdr., USCG (Ret.)
Verne DeWitt, MR1
Jim Fitzgerald
Monte Gluck
Don Higgins
Larry Hobson
Robert Johnson
Walter Jones, USMC
Adrian Lonsdale, Capt., USCG (Ret.)
David P. Marion, CPT Infantry, US Army*
Larry Meyer*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Denny O'Brien
Cordelia Ogrinz, in memory of her brother Alexander J. Ogrinz, III, Lt.*
Rex Rectanus, VADM, USN (Ret.)*
Skip Ridley*
Jennings Rogerson II, Capt. USMC* (Ret.)
John Slagle, Special agent, USBP (Ret.)
Patrick Stevenson, Army Special Forces (Ret.)
Emmett Tidd, Vice Admiral, USN, (Ret.)*
Leslie "Butch" Vorphal, RD3, USN PCF 3
Steve Watts, Army
Dennis D. Willess, EN3, Army Infantry*
Raymond Wroten, SSgt., USMC (Ret.)
James M. Zumwalt in memory of Elmo Zumwalt, Sr. and Elmo Zumwalt, Jr, his father and brother*

[jm951]

I heard that Kerry's full testimony in front of Fulbright is supposed to be on CSPAN tonight. Can anyone confirm it?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Seahawk
Lastly, I am not attacking you personally, I just disagree with you...there is a big difference.

Well, I appreciate that. I hardly ever take this stuff personally. Ecommunication is by its nature, flawed. And people who'd have a civil discussion and find common ground over a beer appear to be implacable enemies in cyberspace.

As far as clarifying my view, I can't express it any more completely than I already have. I believe your questions are answered in what I've already posted.

But let me ask you this, if you think Kerry was a bad guy for seeing the war wasn't all it was caracked up to be, what do you think of Ron Kovic and thousands of other Viet vets like him who decided -- during the war -- that it wasn't worth one more American life?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Tech:

It is called "selective recall". This is a tactic older than time itself. Both sides have used it over the years, generally the side that has the least to stand on in real meaty issue stuff.

Read the opposition's words, parse out a portion that, by itself, seems to make that opposition (a) look stupid (b) look inconsistent or better yet (c) look insane.

(c) certainly isn't difficult here in the OT, where we Democrats are said to serve Satan.

[Seahawk]

I have absolutely no issue with protesting war...Kerry, Kovic or Gen. MacArthur (the American Ceasar...who knew the full affects of war and was absolutely a pacifist). I do have problem with Kerry trumpeting his war record for political means without coming to terms with the nature and direction of his protesting: You simply cannot have it both ways. Real harm was done in a time of war but that is a right I respect and defend. But to "report for duty" without explaintion is wrong.
Quick sea story: My father graduated form West Point in 1952, did the Korean War thing after a tour in Japan (from an eariler post), and was in Southeast Asia in the early '60's. After that he became very disillusioned with the direction his leadership was taking during the war and resigned from the Army as a major. No media, no press conference...an honerable man leaving a life he loved without regret or political angle.
THAT's what I want, honerable folks who stand on principle without rancor. And, man was he pissed when I decided to seek a comission in the Navy...he called me a, "rebel without a clue"! Great guy, we remain best of friends.

[VenezianBlau 87]

Thanks Tech for posting that excerpt. The actual full testimony is not what I was led to believe by sound bite reporting.

I found it in the WSJ Op Page as a referenced link to an adverse Kerry quote; although, I never found the quote in the testimony.

Here's the full testimony:
http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

Bob

[island911]

Originally posted by techweenie
. .. . Look at the testimony of the 150 vets in Detroit that J. Kerry speaks of.
. . . .

Yes; what a good idea. . . let's look at that.

WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

Kerry has a history of embelishing in a Clintonian fashion. So, giving Kerry the benifit of the doubt that what he says is grammatically true, you have to, also, consider that it maybe inferentially false. . . .it is just the way Kerry spins; sorry.

So for Kerry's words here to be true; all it takes is for ONE GUY (of the 150) to make the over the top claim of: "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, poisoned food stocks. . ." AND, have the 149 others to cop to shooting cattle and dogs for fun, and generally ravaged the countryside.

Do you see that? If you do ACTUALLY LOOK at the testimony of the 150 vets in Detroit that J. Kerry speaks of. . . you might not draw the same conclusion that the writer/speaker implied.

So, show some critical thinking; rather than just swamping us with Kerrys puff and "the sky is falling" scare tacticts.

You see, as Moneyguy says, "The "True Believers" on the side of the camp doing the parsing will believe every word of what is written." You're looking like a "True Believer" with all this peppering.


I'll be black for your reply.

[techweenie]

Seahawk, I believe Kerry did explain what he did and how he changed. I believe he spoke up exactly as he put it -- to contiune to fight for the guys in Vietnam -- to being them home. (See his 'winter soldier' reference.)

Your dad's choice to leave and not talk about it was a common one, and I would never critcize him for that.

I don't want to use the 'you really had to be there' argument about the Vietnam era, but the country was divided just about down the middle by 1968, and it kinda tipped over into the majority opposing the war around the Summer of '69. Our soldiers had no lack of awareness of what was going on 'back in the world,' Solders were divided in 'Nam as well. Few thought it was 'their war.' Most felt it was a big political machination and that the leaders were getting bad information from the field (it turns out they were getting very bad information).

As for Kerry talking about his war record, I have mixed feelings about it. No question he served. No question he was in Vietnam for 9/10 months. No question he won medals for bravery.

But he needs to talk about his forward-looking plans & policies and is caught in a bit of a vicious circle: not talking about Vietnam is going to make him look guilty. Was it a mistake for him to mention Vietnam? Early on, Viet vet support helped him win the nomination.

Would the Republicans have attacked if Kerry hadn't brought up hie service? I think they would have.