looks like Kerry's got some 'splainin to do.. Lucy

[fintstone]

Looks like the Press is reading the Pelican Posts for leads again. Wonder if this will ever make it to CNN?

Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

[techweenie]

Originally posted by fintstone

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Oh, the shame.

[island911]

Sooo. . . in other words; a Silver Star-w/ combat V is the Kerry equivalent of Homer Simpsons Award for Outstanding Achievement in the field of Excellence . . .purchased with a three-dollar bill.

("in other words" so the cartoon-crowd can keep up)

[Mulholland]

- Al Hubbard, proven fraud who never set foot in Viet Nam.
The only Vietnamese he ever met was
when he was collaborating with the North Vietnamese in Paris
on the American Communist Party's nickel.

John Kerry's explanation:
"He (Hubbard) simply exaggarated his particular position.
But nobody knew it at the time. And those things happen."

And of course Carter's Ramsey Clarke...communist sympathizer and anti-American slime.

Just gotta hate Democrats.

[cegerer]

"Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years?"

Whether ya support this guy or not, ya gotta admit something's not sounding quite right here ......

[RoninLB]

Kerry's entire self-presentation explosion is in progress.

[tabs]

Most probably when Kerry got into public office he used his influence to try and clean the records up. HOwever the government doesn't have a delete button, and the different versions just stack up.

It basically boils down to the fact that Kerry wasn't very much of a war hero....he did things that so many others did without getting any recognition at all.....

Mopve to phase two of the Bush campaign to nail Kerry to the cross. His anti-war years.... Bet that is going to start the first week of October and culiminate in early November.

[island911]

hmmmm .. .I thought I just heard someone say;
'alright yall; youz three minnuz iz up! . . lez talk abou GW Bu-ush."

refnc:

Originally drawled by John Edwards

If you have any questions about what John Kerry's made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him

;

[Mulholland]

Regarding Lehman's citation for Silver Star:

The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. ]The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."

What does Lehman have to say about it?...

"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me,"

Can you say forgery?

[Mulholland]

Is there a statute of limitation for Treason?

John Kerry -- the Vietcong Candidate.

But you guys just won't understand.....

HE WON 3 PURPLE HEARTS!!!!

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by cegerer
"Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years?"

Whether ya support this guy or not, ya gotta admit something's not sounding quite right here ......

FWIW, it's possible that that's an "administrative" error. I sometimes get cases like that. Here's a scenario:
1 - Sailor is nearing the end of his time in the Navy. His ship tells him "You're done here, get off our ship and report to the nearest Transient Personnel Unit for separation processing."
2 - Sailor scored single digits on the aptitude testing, so he catches the "You're done here, get off our ship" part, but misses the "report to blah-blah-blah" part. Sailor goes home without any separation paperwork.
3 - Sailor is technically still in the Navy, though has changed status: after 30 days absence, the Navy (probably the TPU who has a "Failed to Report" message on him) will put out a DD-553 on the sailor, which puts out a warrant for his arrest.
4 - Sailor, who again, has the approximate mental capacity of a cucumber, gets picked up at a routine traffic stop, is arrested for some other charges, or otherwise draws the attention of the civil authorities, who run his record and discover the outstanding warrant for his arrest. Said civil authorities arrange transportation for Sailor back to the nearest TPU for processing, at Sailor's expense.
5 - Sailor goes in the Brig as a deserter awaiting court martial (trial). Court martial eventually happens, about a month later. The judge realizes that Sailor has approximately the same mental capacity as a rutabaga, and is found not guilty of desertion. (While the rest of this scenario is both realistic and common, this part is a bit unlikely. It gets worse.)
6 - Having been found not guily, Sailor goes back across the street to the TPU, where he is processed for administrative separation. As he is a deserter, the most likely choice for "Characterization of Discharge" is "Other Than Honorable," though through various odd chances, he may persuade the discharge authority to sign off on "General, under honorable conditions" or even (unlikely) "Honorable."
7 - It's possible that Sailor could impress someone with his work ethic, history of hard service, or political connections. It's also possible that the administrative types signing off on the DD-214 might miss something. Heck, I'm one of those admin types, and I occasionally see stuff that the previous three people in the chop-chain missed. Mistakes are certainly possible, though relatively uncommon. If Sailor is really as dumb as a box of nails, he won't notice the mistakes either, when he gets the DD-214 handed to him.

(shrug) That's one possible way to explain the 6 year gap between his end of service and his DD-214. I see about one case like this every couple of months, but they've always earned OTH discharges for their stupidity. If your argument is that something like this occurred, you have to claim that Kerry was dumber than a pile of bowling balls, and didn't realize for 6 years that he needed a DD-214 -- I don't think that's an argument you'd like to make.

Oh, and that's only one explanation for one small discrepancy in his long and illustrious service record. There are still those duplicates, and the "V" that he has to explain away.

Dan

[RoninLB]

it's called the Vietnam boomerang. He's attacked the moral and military purpose of American policy in Central A., the Soviet Union, etc. He'll call for a retreat in Iraq just like he did in 'Nam when the issue becomes difficult. He wants Americans to believe his personal home video is creditibility to be commander-in-chief.

He is good at the oxymoronic feat of promoting his war-fighting valor and his antiwar activities... at least the Dems think so.

[fintstone]

Looks like in the 70's it was not Politically Correct (especially for a Democrat running on an antiwar platform) to have body counts in his citations so he had new citations slipped in...then later, as the country became a bit more patriotic (Reagan era), thought it would look better to have a citation that made him look a bit more heroic.

LOL...only a dumbass would put a combat "V" on a medal that is only awarded for combat.

[island911]

Originally posted by RoninLB

... at least the Dems think so.

you nailed it, Ron.

I expect the smarter dem's have got to see that betting on the Kerry-horse was a BIG mistake . .. they've gotta be pissed.

Well, I suppose Hillary is happy with it.

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
FWIW, it's possible that that's an "administrative" error. I sometimes get cases like that. Here's a scenario:

. ..., but misses the "report to blah-blah-blah" part. Sailor goes home without any separation paperwork.

. ... which puts out a warrant for his arrest.

I suppose that would explain why Kerry won't sign to release ALL those govt records.

sheesh, I'm almost feeling sorry for the guy .. .no boyhood dream of POTUS. . . he'll just have to go home to all his money. (an back to the Senate, where he really hasn't been) boohoo

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by djmcmath
7 - It's possible that Sailor could impress someone with his work ethic, history of hard service, or political connections.

Could it be possible that Ted "didn't do a day in jail for murder" Kennedy was involved in some unethical string-pulling, helping Kerry along?....





nahhhhhh.....Robert "KKK" Byrd (as Democrats have annointed "the conscience of the Senate) wouldn't approve of such immoral and dishonest behavior.

[Mulholland]

VVAW supported demonstration during the Washington Spring Offensive, April - May 1971. Notice the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong flags.

link

Nooooooo.......John Kerry wasn't a communist shill.

[widebody911]

I'll give a rat's ass about what Kerry did 30 years ago when the records relating to GWB's DUI's and ther malfeasances about the same time re-appear.

In the mean time, the NeoCon's got nuttin' worth talkin' about today, so they gotta rehash stuff from 30 years ago. Probably woulda been easier if he'd just dodged the draft.

Originally posted by widebody911
I'll give a rat's ass about what Kerry did 30 years ago when the records relating to GWB's DUI's and ther malfeasances about the same time re-appear.

I believe Mr Kerry brought up the 3 PURPLE HEART thing before aaaanybody else.

Next deflection please.