![]() |
|
|
|
Registered
|
Russian Terror
I've never posted here before. I read this site all the time and know it is highly politicized. I'm a major history buff. My question for everyone is will the radical Muslims finally piss enough people off that there will be a world wide effort to actually do anything about their absurd cause? The Germans new in the mid 30's that the Nazi machine was out to do away with Jews. It looks to me that radical Muslims have declared war on the world that doesn't kiss their ass. Is it just me or is this mass murder of innocent children going to go without any retribution?
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I'm out there.
Posts: 13,084
|
Let's see, we have the Chechens in Russia, the Azerbajani's attacking Armenia, the Islamic Offensive in the Phillipines, the Muslims in the Balkans, the Pakistani's in India, the Islam-inspired renaissance of slavery and slaughter in North Africa. The Palestinian conflict with Israel. The murderous Al Qaeda in America.
Have I left anything out? We are at war. It is global. It's about religion. And we are losing.
__________________
My work here is nearly finished.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
Really interesting and tough question. Here;s my two cents.
There have always been and will always be Muslims - Muslim countries and Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries. They are a big part of the world's population. So, how come sometimes there is radical Muslim terrorism and sometimes there is not? Well, the biggest breeding grounds for radical Muslim terrorism are the Middle East and lately Russia (Chechnya). These are also the areas where there is the most violent, armed conflict between non-Muslim governments and a Muslim minority. In the Middle East there has of course been the 50 year long war / occupation / intifada (whatever you want to call it) between Israel and the Palestinians. In Russia there is the 10-year war between the Russian government and the independence movement in the Chechnya province (this is definitely a war). I think this illustrates an important point - radical Muslim terrorism doesn't just happen, it is not inherent that Muslim = terrorist. The terrorism grows from an underlying Muslim vs non-Muslim war, and carries that war to other areas of the world. If the underlying wars were resolved, I believe the terrorism would fade. Somehow resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should be the single most important goal of US foreign policy (and, since terrorism has come home, domestic policy too). It is incredibly hard - although Clinton came so very close before Arafat backed away - but I think all our might, influence, and billions would have been better spent trying to bring peace to the Israelis and Palestinians, and economic improvement to the Palestinians, than in invading Iraq in search of WMDs, brutal dictators, or whatever is the latest justification for that war. As for the Chechen terrorism, it is a part of the Russian-Chechyna wars. That situation doesn't get much press here, but it is a serious war - when the Soviet Union broke up, the province of Chechnya tried to also break away from Russia, and the Russian central government wouldn't hear of it. Russian armor and airstrikes against Chechen rebels and civilians, cities laid waste, the whole bit. There have actually been two Chechen wars, 1994-1996 and 1999-present. Estimated civilian deaths are 160,000 to date, estimated Russian military deaths 10,000-25,000 (the Russian government doesn't release casualty numbers), estimated number of Chechen rebel deaths unknown. Given the tendencies of Vladmir Putin, who has pretty much made his political fortune as a hard-liner, I don't see that war being resolved - until Russia has a new government. So Russian soldiers will continue killing Chechen civilians in Chechnya and Chechen terrorists will continue killing Russian civilians in non-Chechenn Russia.
__________________
1989 3.2 Carrera coupe; 1988 Westy Vanagon, Zetec; 1986 E28 M30; 1994 W124; 2004 S211 What? Uh . . . “he” and “him”? |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I'm out there.
Posts: 13,084
|
Quote:
__________________
My work here is nearly finished.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
So the rest of the world will tipy toe around the problem until what happens? What is it going to take?
__________________
63 356 So Called Outlaw 76 930 |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
To Moses -
Well, how about here in the US? There is little or no homegrown Arab/Muslim terrorism going on here. Similarly in the UK, where the terrorism has been from the IRA, not the English Muslims. Similarly in Germany, despite a significant Muslim immigrant population. In societies where Muslims are pretty much intermingled with the rest of the population, with more or less equal economic and political status, you don't tend to see radical Muslim terrorism (not homegrown, that is - of course a foreign terrorist can strike anywhere). I'm not an expert on this, I'm reading and learning along with everyone else, so if I'm wrong I'd like to be told so. Right now, my feeling is that it is not a global religious war, it is festering hotspots where decades of conflict have bred terrorists, who are increasingly linking up with each other. Maybe if this goes on, it will spiral into a global religious war. To Les Paul - Not sure what you mean by tippy toe around the problem. I think as long as the underlying wars and conflicts continue, they will continue to breed and motivate the terrorists. I don't think you're going to be able to "win the war on terrorism" by military and police means. Look at the last couple of years: the invasion of Iraq has probably increased the risk of terrorism (vastly more hatred of the US in the Middle East, plus Iraq turned into a convenient training center pumping out new battle-hardened Arab terrorists), and despite a lot of money and effort domestically the US is still one great big soft target (how well defended is the average shopping mall, elementary school, or office building in your town, anyway?).
__________________
1989 3.2 Carrera coupe; 1988 Westy Vanagon, Zetec; 1986 E28 M30; 1994 W124; 2004 S211 What? Uh . . . “he” and “him”? Last edited by jyl; 09-04-2004 at 08:53 PM.. |
||
![]() |
|
![]() |
Registered
|
Why? The Muslims deep in their hearts must know they can't win. I guess the conservative Muslims better know they are going to have to corral their loose cannons in before there is a world wide backlash? Or will everyone stand still and let more and more senseless murder fester like a stinking time bomb?
__________________
63 356 So Called Outlaw 76 930 |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
Quote:
WTF?? |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I'm out there.
Posts: 13,084
|
Quote:
Of all the major religions, Islam has the highest birth rate (by far) and the lowest level of education. They are also the poorest. These are key elements that guarantee a nice long worldwide conflict. Los Angeles, Woodland Hills and Dearborn are hardly reflective of the Judeo-Christian/Islam struggle.
__________________
My work here is nearly finished.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,492
|
Hi Les,
More importantly, do you like guitars or is that name a coincidence?
__________________
Audi B7 S4 Last edited by Victor; 09-05-2004 at 02:16 AM.. |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
Les Paul, there is no substitute.
__________________
63 356 So Called Outlaw 76 930 |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West of Seattle
Posts: 4,718
|
It makes relatively little sense to discuss Muslim terrorism without some background in the Koran. That and a brief history lesson will take you a long ways towards understanding Islamic fundamentalism.
It should be noted that Muslims do not always engage in terrorism -- only when they lack the means to make real war do they do so. In the early days, it was Muhammed and his raiders, snatching poorly armed caravans as they trekked across the desert. IIRC, the Muslims had an important forgotten role in the Crusades, as well. People fail to note that Muslims had captured Jerusalem and were executing the unbearable occupation demanded by the Koran, and that English Christians "started" the Crusades in an effort to liberate Jerusalem. From Muslim sources, you will read about how "Islam spread," though they don't mention that it spread through war. The Crusades were a series of wars "started by Christians in an effort to win back lands taken by Islam." (sigh) But I digress. The Koran makes no bones about it -- peaceful coexistence is not an option. There is the House of Islam, and there is Everybody Else. Everybody Else must either be killed, converted, or subjected to crippling occupation -- again, the Koran leaves no choices here. The places where Islam appears to peacefully coexist fall into one of two categories. 1 - Not primarily fundamentalist population. In the same way that many Christians, Catholics, etc. routinely go to church, own a Bible, or otherwise have some signs of "religion," but do not lead lives that reflect the professed belief, many Muslims attend mosques and own Korans, but do not live lives reflective of the fundamentals of the belief. We can only hope this continues in these places. 2 - Dormant Muslims. This was the case in Spain for a long time. The Spanish Muslim population has grown dramatically in the last 10-15 years, but until recently has refrained from terrorist activites. What brought them out of dormancy? Beats me. Will American Muslims do the same when called upon by some trigger? Will heretofore peaceful mullahs incite their people to rebellion and terrorism? Les -- I don't think the Muslims see it the same way you do. Rather than thinking they can't win, they seem to believe that winning is inevitable, ultimately. The hope is that the rest of the world doesn't figure it out in time. If enough countries become crippled against involvement by their Muslim majorities, then the Muslims will win, no doubt about it. Dan
__________________
'86 911 (RIP March '05) '17 Subaru CrossTrek '99 911 (Adopt an unloved 996 from your local shelter today!) |
||
![]() |
|
![]() |
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: I'm out there.
Posts: 13,084
|
Quote:
Mohammad's "convert or die" method was ultimately successful.
__________________
My work here is nearly finished.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Posts: 3,814
|
jyl put it best. If russia hadn't been trying to maintain its control over chechnia this would have never happened.
Just think of all the similiar incidents bush is currently working on for us by occupying iraq and afghanistan. I always find it interesting that so many people try to pin this on islam even though their own religion, christianity, has a much darker past. We don't even have to go that far back in history. How many people did the christian citizens of germany send to their graves? |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
Quote:
It is funny how we go to the theater and watch a movie like Independence Day and cheer for Will Smith to kill every last alien that wants to dominate the world and kill every creature on earth that is not like them....yet make excuses for humans that have the same goals. The humans are far worse...they are one of us.
__________________
74 Targa 3.0, 89 Carrera, 04 Cayenne Turbo http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/fintstone/ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" Some are born free. Some have freedom thrust upon them. Others simply surrender |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Tarzana, CA / Oxnard, CA
Posts: 967
|
The civilized world isn't going to get together to form a cohesive plan to eradicate terrorism until the "Islamic Bomb" is detonated somewhere, be it Israel (most likely), Europe, or the US. This could happen within 10 years or so, given Iran's atomic weapons program and North Korea's willingness to sell to the highest bidder. The only wild-card remaining is China and their reaction. Could get real ugly.
__________________
Ron '88 Coupe (formerly) |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
|
This is what Putin gets for fighting a "more sensitive" war on terror. right from the Kerry playbook. I am glad our leader has not wavered. Putin and the Russians will not make such a mistake again. Don't be suprised to see a little wholesale slaughter.
Oh, wasn't it great to see Muslims worldwide turning out into the streets to condemn those bastards (islamic terrorists) shooting hundreds of children in the back as they fled the explosions????Wait..that didn't happen did it? I expect to see more videos of jubilant celebrations by Palestinians etc...just like after 9/11.
__________________
74 Targa 3.0, 89 Carrera, 04 Cayenne Turbo http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/fintstone/ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" Some are born free. Some have freedom thrust upon them. Others simply surrender |
||
![]() |
|
Registered
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West of Seattle
Posts: 4,718
|
Quote:
![]() Dan
__________________
'86 911 (RIP March '05) '17 Subaru CrossTrek '99 911 (Adopt an unloved 996 from your local shelter today!) |
||
![]() |
|
Lurkasaurus
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 930
|
There was a story on CBC on the condemnations from Muslims around the world.. It showed a rally against terrorism in France with a few thousand showing up.. another in Italy and another in Egypt..
Didn't get that one on Fox?
__________________
Tony '77 930 "Objects in mirror are losing" "Oh cock..." - James May Last edited by turbocarrera; 09-05-2004 at 03:17 PM.. |
||
![]() |
|