'88 Civic warm start problem?

djmcmath · 09-15-2004, 09:14 PM

My daily driver (read:beater) has a mysterious intermittent warm start problem. Cold mornings, I come out and start the car first go with no problems, ever. If it's hot -- I've been out driving for half an hour, I stop for lunch, gas, whatever -- it starts right up. But if I'm just running around town, and it isn't getting up to temperature, but it isn't cold, it won't start. Turns over, but doesn't start.

Some miscellaneous history, and the symptoms:
-The car is an '88 Honda Civic Coupe, with an '88 Civic CRX engine installed. This problem existed both before and after engine swap. The engine is 1.5L, fuel injected.
-Since the swap, the temperature gauge on the dash has not operated. The radiator fan, which is cycled based on coolant temperature, however, still cycles.
-Sometimes, when it won't start, I can smell fuel -- as if running very very rich, or simply not burning any fuel (thus the ignition replacements).
-The engine turns over for about 10 seconds, then the check engine light comes on, with error code "fuel injectors," leading me to believe it's flooding.
-Sometimes, when driving, the check engine light reports that the O2 sensor is bad. There is no pattern, no condition, no series of events leading to this warning light -- it just goes, sometimes, randomly. The O2 sensor was replaced approx 2 months ago; no change in problem.
-About 4 months ago, replaced most ignition bits -- plugs (Bosch P-4's), wires, distributor, and rotor.

I know this isn't usually a honda-friendly forum, but I'm at wit's end, and more than willing to accept ridicule for driving a rice-burner in hopes of finding some help. Does anybody know where to find a high-quality shop manual for these cars? Maybe detailed (and accurate, unlike the ones in the Chiltons and Haynes) wiring diagrams, preferably with descriptions of the locations of the parts they're describing? Can anyone maybe point me to a Honda forum?

TIA,

Dan

LeeH · 09-15-2004, 09:42 PM

This may be a silly question, but did you test the injectors?

I fixed up and sold an Accord recently and had a few problems. I posted a few questions here:

http://www.batauto.com/cgi-bin/Forum/db_TalkToMeV2.cgi?forum_name=imports

and received Pelican-like help.

djmcmath · 09-15-2004, 10:00 PM

Silly question for sure, in that it makes me feel silly. (Sheepish)

The check engine light says "fuel injectors," so I replace a bunch of other stuff. Seriously makes me question my competence as a mechanic. Suppose I better keep the day job, eh?

Ok, just ran a search at the linked forum, turns up a guy with an almost identical problem ('90 Accord, same car) and a simple $55 fix ("main relay," whatever that is). The sole response was "You describe the textbook symptoms of a main relay failure."

Thanks a heap!!

Dan

LeeH · 09-15-2004, 10:11 PM

Cool! That would be great if the relay fixed it.

Here's another valuable link:
http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html
It's a full shop manual for 3rd generation Accords. I used that to fix several items. Takes some effort to navigate, but I found some drivability flow charts that really came in handy. Don't know how much would cross over to the Civic, but I remember it telling me how to test the injectors!

john70t · 09-16-2004, 07:33 AM

I had that same problem and symptoms with my 91 civic, and yes it was the main relay, and yes both those symptoms went away. I understand the injector code but the O2 is a mystery.
88-91 are 4th gen and many parts are interchangable. Not sure of the relay. Try junkyards or aftermarket websites and plug it in yourself.

djmcmath · 09-16-2004, 07:37 AM

The relay's not too bad. I can do relays. I'll drop by the FLAPS this afternoon and pick one up (assuming they have one). If that doesn't fix it, I'll have to start replacing fuel injectors at $60/ea. Ouch.

Thanks for the shop manual links -- that could save me some $$$ on fuel injectors, if they test out ok.

I love this board.

Dan

LeeH · 09-16-2004, 07:59 AM

The initial injector test is pretty easy. You loosen the clips that hold the connectors on the injectors. Start the car and then unplug an injector. There should be a slight drop in idle speed and the idle will become a bit rough. Plug it back in and the idle should pick back up and smooth out.

Do this for each injector. If an injector is bad you won't see any change when you unplug it. You'll still need to verify there's voltage to that injector (to make sure it's the injector that's bad and not the wiring), but that procedure is in the manual.

john70t · 09-16-2004, 02:55 PM

To add to that,...."noid" light kits are pretty cheap. Unplug injector connector, plug in LED light, and watch for flash.
To look at fuel spray pattern......pull injector and stick in glass jar, same as Bosche CIS.
There also an electronic kit which energizes the injector for exactly .050(?) milliseconds. Put a pressure tester on the rail and see if all the injectors create the same drop. Engine off, fuel primed.

LeeH · 09-16-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by john70t
To look at fuel spray pattern......pull injector and stick in glass jar, same as Bosche CIS.

Would you need have replacement "O" rings handy if you did this or can you reuse them?

slakjaw · 09-16-2004, 07:26 PM

The main relay in those things go out ALL THE ******* TIME! I have replaced 3 or 4 in the last 2 months. there is even a Honda TSB on them.

they are usually intermitent too. OH and all the ones I have seen fail only when you are trying to start the car, if it works that petculiar time it usually operates fine untill you shut the car off.

basically, when they fail your fuel pump shuts down.

Kyle

slakjaw · 09-16-2004, 07:28 PM

Oh and you could also Ohm the injectors if I rember right thay should be about 12 each.

and yes you will need new O-Rings AND Pintle caps for them.

Kyle

djmcmath · 09-16-2004, 07:31 PM

Is there an alternative? I'd hate to be spending $50 every two weeks to keep my old beater operating. I'm pretty handy with wiring, so I suppose I could look up the specs on that relay and rewire something that was more robust? Mouser ought to carry a similar relay, if it turns out to be a real problem.

Of course, if my relay fails again in two weeks, I'll assume that it isn't the relay and start fixing other potential problems. (sigh)

Anyhow, ordered the part at my FLAPS today. Should show up Saturday. The downer is that it'll take a couple of weeks before I decide it's working satisfactorily, by which point it may have failed again. (sigh, again)

Dan