A quagmire you say?
 

The future, or our (U.S.) future in Iraq does not look so well.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/17/us.iraq.intel/index.html

But I'm sure if one tries hard enough, they can spin a quagmire into something positive, or positive yet to come...

Many of the Combatants are other than Iraqi. This is a Holy war that pits the forces of Evil against the rest of the world.

Are these your words or theirs?

10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag, it's only going to get you one thing my friend.:p

I dont see any Ozzies blowing up discos? Any Japanese Kidnapping and Behaeding Truck Drivers. If so just let me Know.

I also don't see any foreign army invading, occupying and slaughtering citizens of those countries.

If there were an occupying force on American soil, you'd see more than one hapless invader tied to the back of a pickup truck and dragged down a country road (because beheading is soooo 1500's). And you'd be cheering those good old boys along, wouldn't you?

So the embassy in Kenya, The Uss Cole, The WTC First Bombing, 911 were because we invaded Iraq.

Bad things happen during a war, both sides get dirty..........................the winning side gets to clean it's self up by writting the history books.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=285413

Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of the birth of Muhammad: 1981

The real Day of God is the day that Amir al mo’menin (1) drew his sword and slaughtered all the khavarej (2) and killed them from the first to the last.

The Days of God are when Allah, the gracious, the almighty, causes an earthquake.


It is when He slaps on the face.


It is when he causes a hurricane.


He whips this people to become humans.

If the Amir al mo’menin (1) wanted to be tolerant, he would not have drawn his sword killing 700 people in one go


In our prisons we have more of the same kind of people who are corrupt.




If we do not kill them, each one of them that gets out, will become a murderer!

They don’t become humans.


Why do you Mullahs only go after the ordinances of prayer and fasting?

Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing?

Quran says; kill, imprison!


Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy?

Mercy is against God.

Mehrab (3) means the place of war, the place of fighting.


Out of the mehrabs, wars should proceed, ÇÒ ãÍÑÇÈåÇ ÈÇíÏ ¡ Ìä� �íÏÇ ÔæÏ



Just as all the wars of Islam used to proceeded out of the mehrabs.


The prophet has [had] sword to kill people..


Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men.



All of them were warriors.

They used to wield swords; they used to kill people.


We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people


In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people.

In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza (4) because they were a bunch of discontent people.


If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice.


The lives of people must be secured through punishment.



Because, the protection of the masses lies beneath these very punitive executions.

With just a few years of imprisonment things don’t get fixed.

You must put aside these childish sentimentalism.


We believe that the accused essentially does not have to be tried. He or she must just be killed.


Only their identity is to be established and then they should be killed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Amir al mo’menin: The Commander of the Faithful. Title of Ali the fourth Caliph and the first Imam of the Shiites.

(2) khavarej: A group of dissidents that rejected the leadership of Ali and when 4000 of them gathered in the mosque to protest, Ali sent his armed men and massacred them all.

(3) hraab : Prayer niche of a Mosque, in front of which the Imam stands when leading the congregational prayers. It literally means the place of war, derived from harb (war)

(4) Bani Qurayza: A tribe of the Jews of Medina whose quarter Muhammad besieged, cut the water to them and when they surrendered, he ordered his cousin Ali and his uncle Hamza to massacre them while their hands were tide from behind to their necks and their bodies were thrown in a ditch. Boys were inspected and if they had pubic hair they were counted as men and executed. The number of men massacred in that day is reported to be between 600 to 900. All their belongings went to Muhammad alone (because Muslims did not have to fight this war the prophet kept all the booty for himself) The children and wives of these Jews were sold as slaves. Muhammad kept the 17-year-old beautiful Rayhanah for himself. Rayhana, whose father, brothers and husband, Muhammad had killed, did not accept Islam and did not agree to marry the prophet. She remained in his household as a sex slave until he died and forbidden to remarry after that.

1. Kenya: Clinton ordered cruise missiles to strike Al Quidea training camps.

2. WTC the first time: Clinton with international cooperation put these guys behind bars.

3. USS Cole: By the time the CIA and FBI came to a concensus that Al Quedia was behind it, the Bush gang decided to ignor it, or as Condi Rice said at the 9/11 hearing they did not want to get involved in a "tit for tat". See the Bill Moyers "NOW" program for more infomation.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/moyersandjones.html

No, those were because our meddlement in the middle east. Then we invade Iraq (invading = meddling), and people start to lose their heads.

But you know this already, you just chose to wrap the flag around it instead, which is what makes the NeoCon agenda so frightening.

Here’s a bone-chilling letter sent by Mohammad to Julanda brothers of Oman. This letter is still on display at Sohar Fort, Sultanate of Oman.

“Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

Does this letter show religious tolerance? Islam does not deserve religious tolerance, because it cannot tolerate other peoples’ faith. Islam considers religious tolerance as weakness and takes full advantage to expand Islamic imperialism

As you can see in Mohammad own words they want to kill us all if we dont convert to Islam. What more proof do you want?

And GWB wants to kill them to convert them to Democracy (God's gift).

Ok Steve, I guess we go back to Plan B. All US troops drop what they're doing and head for the nearest air base. Leave everthing behind, just get the hell out of dodge. We airlift them out as fast as we can; we can probably commandeer commerical aircraft for the job. Everyone leaves with his duffel bag and the boots on his feet. As soon as the last plane levels off @ 30k and the pilot turns off the seat belt light, the bomb bay doors open on the B52's Nuke everything that even sounds slightly Arab.

That, my friend, is the only way your plan will work. This fighting in the streets BS isn't going to cut it. It's like the Sorcerer's Apprentice; every "insurgent" (ie person defending his homeland) we kill posthumously recruits 5 more.

So unless you're prepared to wage genocide on a near-global scale, you have to come up with something different.

I didnt Hear GW say that please post when that was stated.

Yep, the reasons seem pretty crazy to us, but if you believe that to destroy your enemy you must know them, then read on.

http://www.lib.ecu.edu/govdoc/terrorism.html

1998 letter of Jihad
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

1996 letter: land of two holy palaces
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html

MEDDLEMENT .YOu've got to be kidding...This is the most naive statement I've heard on this Board...Exactly what do you think it takes for Americans to ENJOY the standard of living we have? THe US has to be a proactive force in the world...that mantle of responsibilitywas finaly recognized by our government in 1948. You don't get to be Rome with out "Meddleing"

Now heres a bit of a rant for U....The history they taught you when I was going to school was one where America was the shining example to the world, that our country wore the white hat and America was the next best thing to the immaculate conception. It was my generation the Boomers that said "Oh no, the the USA hasn't been the ideal place we have blood on our hands." well the Boomers are in power now and all they can do is bad mouth America and castigate ourselves for being a country..What we, they don't realize is that it takes dirt on the hands to run a country...everything isn't ideal...and lily white... if you want lily white you better be prepared to go live out in Teddys Kozinskis cabin in Montana... cause that what your gona have nothin...

Yep, just because the president says there is no connection- must make it true? Even though they (religious organizations) fund raised and got him elected in 2000, meets with their leaders regulary, there is no interest in the Bush admiistration in converteing Muslims to Christianity.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Should_Christian_missionaies_-4-6-3.htm

Steve, either you're a troll, really, really, really well indoctrinated, or just slow.

I'll type slower next time.

Let's look at it a different way.

Members of a specific religion have carried out attacks on The US, sucessful ones at that.

The first question a sensible person would ask is "why?"

Their relgious texts would indicate that they want to kill anyone who is not of their ilk (ala Crusades). There's lots of passages than can be used to back up this answer to the 'why'.

Ok, but if that was the real reason, then why haven't they taken on targets that are closer to home, first? There's plenty of infidels that are much closer, which would make easier targets that taking on the biggest military-industrial power in the world. From a logistical standpoint, it would make sense to hit them first, and use their resources to take on the next target. Germany in WWII is a relatively recent textbook example.

Hmm. That doens't seem to fit with their MO of striking a target thousands of miles away, does it?

Ok, let's say they like to travel. Why haven't they taken on any of the other infidel empires, particularly those who aren't as strong militarily? Canada comes to mind, or Mexico. How about Cuba?

It's starting to look like it's not about the infidels after all.

Now, here's the hard part, what is different between the US and those other countries. Hint: it's a local problem for them.

Take as much time as you need, use additional pieces of paper as necessary, show your work.

Let's look for some middle ground. I don't think anyone's seriously proposing mass genocide. OTOH, I think that our culture has been taught that you can't discriminate based on religion. That makes this war particularly difficult, because our enemies in this war are all of the same religion (though of varying sects, who disagree about the transendency of The Prophet, and what-not) and who clearly discriminate against us because of our religion (or lack thereof). As the second letter clearly indicates, we are at war not with a single nation, but rather with Allah.

So there are some options for broad policy:
1 - We abandon the middle east to go it's own way. Stop supporting Israel, as the "Zionist" support clearly infuriates the Muslims. This policy is clearly fraught with peril and stupidity. The crystal ball prediction on this one has Arabs invading Europe again, though probably not for at least one or two presidencies.
2 - Shoot for some middle ground. Maintain enough presence in the region to control the violence without killing anyone. There is probably a Right Way (tm) to do this, but it seems fairly complex, and leads us rapidly into a "limited war" (aka quagmire).
3 - Remove violent Islam from the scene. How? Good question. There are significant Muslim populations all over the world, at this point, and many of them are rapidly becoming more violent. There are massive schools where children are being taught only the "war verses" from the Quran, in batches of hundreds. Men are removed from contact with women and taught that death in glorious battle leads to a heaven full of eternally virginal young women. The more you look at this scene, the scarier it gets.

Gentlemen, we are fighting a war against Islam, against Allah. And we are losing badly. Our country lacks the national willpower to wage a war against a religion. We will lose this war, and they will come here to impose Sharia law in this country.


Dan