Well, they have in a way, in the not so distant past (see below). However you have a point Widebody in that there were specific reasons this time.

Look at the links I have provided, crazy reasons, but lots of crazy reasons.
http://www.lib.ecu.edu/govdoc/terrorism.html

1998 letter of Jihad
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

1996 letter: land of two holy palaces
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrori...fatwa_1996.html

__________________

http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2004/1.12.04/index.php

What it takes to enjoy our standard of living is irrelevant to those from whom said means are extracted. "Mantle of responsibility" is merely the cloak of corporate imperialism.

It must be Friday. We're holding Special Ed classes for American Jihadists on the Pelican board.

No 'cut and paste' allowed, Steve!

Load up the short bus. :D

Thom nailed it earlier on. Plan B. All troops go back to the airbase, and get the hell out of Dodge. Worked in Vietnam, should work here.

There will be NO viable elections in January, because even if there are, they will not be majority elections.

All-in-all, this has been a piss-poor exercise in, I think someone stated correctly, "MEDDLEMENT."

We have over 3 billion to rebuild infrastructure reappropriated for security. I mean, come on, isn't that an indication right there that this was poorly planned from the get-go?

Half of Iraq is controlled by insurgents - so much for flowers to the liberators. Poorly planned...again...

Face it, we were sold a bill of goods (and goofs) on this one.

Ok give em your Porsche and your house and your job ......make em happy...It isn't "irrelevant" to those who we extract our means..they don't like it...but are you willing to give yours back to them...if not you ain't got nothin to say...except get on the bus and load up the assualt weapons to start the killing....

If it weren't for "corporate imperialism" you'd be living out in Teddy Kozinski's cabin in Montana.... working on a collective....

The Soviets under Stalin was an expansive empire....if the US didn't stand up to the Soviets you'd be on that collective shoveling **** for a living...

Look it nobody ever said what happens in the world is fair, but you gota take care of your own...the Bible says charity begins at home...the USA isn't nor was it ever perfect...but we are the best/ fairest thats ever bin...

.


<- Rod was my friend.

What did he do to any Muslim?

He just went to work that morning just like you and I.

They decided to come to NYC and kill Rod and 3000 other people who had nothing to do with any of their Islamic BS.

Did any one else on this board lose a friend that morning?

wow... this is going to get interesing...

I'm sure that Rod did nothing to cause his untimely, (and unjust), demise. His government, on the other hand, has plenty of culpability in it, from our misguided foreign policy in the Middle East to ignoring warnings of an imminent terrorist attack prior to 9/11/01.

I do not think that you can honestly boil geopolitics down to a question of "what did one investment banker, (or whatever he did for work), ever do to a Muslim?"

It's a little disingenius, don't you agree? I mean, acting as if nothing else was going on in the world for the last *how many* years? :cool:

Yes, a good friend, a few colleagues and a few guys I grew up with. I am looking down into the pit right now. Not a pretty site.

Do you think they were hated more than any other people in the free world? I think not. They had the misfortune of being in the biggest buildings, in the biggest city, in the biggest country of the freedom loving world. We are all hated equally.

I have typed and said this a dozen times - we do nothing and we invite more attacks. We fight back and we are bullies. The bin-Ladens know us, our divisions, our history and our weaknesses. Anything Bush was going to do was bound to be wrong..

NO It isn't "anything Bush was going to do was bound to be wrong."

U don't get it...it has to do with the WAY the West thinks and does business that was bound to get it wrong....Our very system of conducting affairs/ business... our very organization and thinking is anthethical to the Muslim world.... Our system only knows how to act in one fashion..to change our systems mode of operation to meet the challenge takes time.

Is the Muslim worlds system right and the Wests wrong?

Osma has never been to the West, so he doesn't have a true understanding of the situation, nor does he want to...

hmmm...

how many people is required for "mass"?

This is the bit that the NeoCons and their apologists just can't fathom; instead they lapse into victim mode.

Step back and ask yourself, and/or your colleagues:

WHY IS THE U.S.A. SINGLED OUT FOR SPECIAL TREATMENT BY THE JIHADISTS?

They hate us because we're (well, the lot of you) are xtians?
Nope - lots of other xtian countries

They hate us because we're free?
Nope - lots of other free countries.

They hate us because we're rich?
Nope - lots of other rich nations.

They hate us because we're decadent?
Nope - lots of decadence everywhere else.

Do they hate us because we give billions to Israel?
Hmmmmmm - what other countries do that?

Oooh! I know! They attacked New York because they hat the Yankees, and didn't want them to win another World Series - that's it!

Not sure that this statement is correct, assuming that you meant to type "Osama". I believe that he lived in Canada w/ his familiy at one time, this was many years before he became a terrorist. :cool:

Yeah, Tabs, check your history on Osama. I think he's been west a few times.

And anyway, this diatribe about business models speaks to simplistically to the whole ordeal. Yeah, we'd like to believe it's business, but it's not just that. It's about culture and religion.

Or do you really speak the truth? It is about business, and the only business we have with Iraq is black and comes in liquid form.

Islam has always been an unstable religion thats is xenophobic ....read your European history of the 7th through 15th centuries.

To say the Jihadists hate America only is nonsense...

Mohamed Atta became radicalized in Germany and had never traveled to the USA beofre his radicalization.

The Chechen Rebels don't hate America ...they hate the Russians....BTW: the Chechens are Muslims.

The Orginal Crusade of the Jihadists was against the Russians in Afgan in the 1980's...

The Chinese have trouble in one of their provinces with radical Muslim groups...

The Jihadists hate:

1. US support of Israel at the expense of Muslim interests
2. US policies developed during the Cold War that supported despotic regimes that were friendly to the US
3. US policies developed to support Western Business interests
4. Intrusion of Western culture on traditional Islamic values.

THe Jihadists hate the US because we are the leader of the Western World and have provided an umbrella of cover for other western nations to operate under. We in a sense are the straw man to hate...

Very good Tabs, you get an "A" for the day!

Now, what to do about the situation?

Osama had only traveled to Beriut when a teenager...went back to Saudi and felt guilty about his experience and repented...He got his engineering degree in Saudi..and when the Afgan war started volunteered to go and fight the Soviets...After the war he returned home a hero...and when Sadam invaded Kuwait proposed to the Saudi royals to get the Afgan Fighters to kick Sadam out of Kuwait...to which the Royals laughed at Osama ...Osama was angered by this rejection and felt that American troops in the Islamic Holy land was blasphemy...the royal kicked him out and he went to Sudan...and the rest is history

Ugg Tabs, a go out for a curry and now you are giving me heartburn...

I dont think Bush is wrong. That was just a turn of phrase.. But bin Laden does understand the political dynamics and divisions in American politics. He is evil, but no fool. Also, much of Europe has been uneasy about the economic and cultural dominance of the USA, and has been waiting to take us down a notch. And this started back in the Clinton days for you partisan hacks.. For those evil ba$tard highjackers, 9/11 was the perfect time.

And bin Laden did in fact visit the west as some kind of exchange student or extended vacation. This is the greatest misinterpretation, that Al-Quida is representative of the poor Arab "street". I think not. They are all very middle class and well educated. Most of them came to school in the west and found themselves and their own cultures lacking. They were lost boys, losers, every one.

Widebody - try yoga. Please.

What about the billions we give to the Egyptions? I guess it is not enough. And all that oil we buy from the Middle East. 99% mark-up over production costs. We surely are ripping them off... Give us all a break.

bin Ladens #1 excuse (and I say excuse, because until every western woman is wrapped in a black burka and us fellows are joining him at prayers at his sect, he will hate us, and wish to destroy us), was US troops in Saudi Arabia. It was only after Saddam was gone, and the troops left, did Osama start to harp on about Israel. So why are we singled out?? Because we are the leaders of a way of life that he hates.

So, for all of your "Nopes", I would say Yes!

We are screwed....

What do we need more Israel or Oil?
The USA will never cut Israel loose...the Jewish lobby in the USA is too strong and vocal

We need time...to support more moderate factions to arise...

we need to provide jobs so that people have a future.

One problem.. the alternative to the despotic regimes we support is worse for us (fundlmentalist) than the one that we support.

will our way of thinking and organization allow us to change?

Bush fought the Afgan war very smartly...using troops sparingly

Irwreck was supposed to be a shining star of freedom hailed in th Islamic world as a ray of hope...where they got that idea from about Irwreck is beyond me...they just needed to read it's history of factionalism...George the 1st avoided taking Sadam out because he knew he didn't have anything viable to replace Sadam with and was afraid the Iranians would gain the upper hand with the ****es.