Just to be clear: I didn't write that. But I do agree with it.

Yes.

I realize you guys are never going to give me any credit because of my age, maybe I should just be like John Kerry and give up before it's over.

I Cultivate a White Rose
By Jose Marti

I cultivate a white rose
In July as in January
For the sincere friend
Who gives me his hand frankly.

And for the cruel person who tears out
the heart with which I live,
I cultivate neither nettles nor thorns:
I cultivate a white rose.

Wow Clowd. You are going to find it very difficult to get through life with your closemindedness and snap judgements. That is, if you are the same in real life as you are on an anonymous web board.

There's a Billy Joel song called "Angry Young Man" that you should listen to a couple times.

Amen to that

I don't think your age is the problem . . .

I'm not dismissing you because of your age. I'm dismissing you because you're talking like a naive, snivelling little *****.

I voted for Kerry. I think gay marriage is fine. I think abortion should stay legal. I partially disagree with you about the war, but no biggie. None of this stuff has anything to do with why I'm being dismissive of your opinions. You get me?

OK.. so what are we fighting about?

Billy Joel, Prelude/Angry Young Man

There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl,
He's always at home with his back to the wall.
And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost,
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Give a moment or two to the angry young man,
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand.
He's been stabbed in the back, he's been misunderstood,
It's a comfort to know his intentions are good.
And he sits in a room with a lock on the door,
With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage
I found that just surviving was a noble fight.
I once believed in causes too,
I had my pointless point of view,
And life went on no matter who was wrong or right.

And there's always a place for the angry young man,
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand.
And he's never been able to learn from mistakes,
So he can't understand why his heart always breaks.
But his honor is pure and his courage as well,
And he's fair and he's true and he's boring as hell-
And he'll go to the grave as an angry old man.

There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl,
He's always at home with his back to the wall.
And he's proud of his scars and the battles he's lost,
And he struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross-
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Clowd, being young doesn't give you a right to be a complete idiot.


the only terrorist we need protection from is George Bush - Clowd

The Democratic Party, like many other institutions that have not gracefully entered the 21st century yet (the NAACP, the PLO, the U.N.), needs new leadership. Daschle being "retired" will help; Nancy Pelosi, who's idea of political cooperation is having the door held open for her at the House of Representatives, needs to step down, too.
The Democrats used to really understand the American people. Anyone who looks at a map of how the COUNTIES of the United States voted this week, would quickly come to the conclusion that the Democrats have been led astray.
It starts at the top. New leaders bring new ideas.

Trust me, you do not want to go there. I'm pro-choice, but the "it's not alive till it's born" argument has no scientific validity. None. Period.

So you are young? . . or really old, losing your faculties?

Here I was just discounting your words based on the lunacy they represent.

Sorry man . . didn't know you had an excuse.

Hey, somebody get Moses all riled up about DNA again.

Man, those were the days {sniff}. Back before things got all heated and political. They just got heated. :D

JP

OJ didn't do it

Know Your Enemy - Dead Prez

chorus:

[stic.man & m1]
know your enemy, know yourself
that's the politic
george bush is way worse than bin laden is
know your enemy, know yourself
that's the politic
f.b.i., c.i.a., the real terrorists
know your enemy, know yourself
that's the politic
george bush is way worse than bin laden is
know your enemy, know yourself
that's the politic
c.i.a., f.b.i. the real terrorists

[stic.man]
you got to watch what you say in these days and times
It's a touchy situation, lotta fear and emotion
september 11th
televised world-wide
suicide planes fallin like bombs from out the sky
they wasn't aimin at us
not at my house
they hit the world trade, the pentagon, and almost got the white house
now everybody walkin round patriotic
how we gon' fight to keep freedom when we ain't got it?
you wanna stop terrorists?
start with the u.s. imperalists
ain't no track record like america's, see
bin laden was trained by the c.i.a
but I guess if you a terrorist for the u.s
then it's okay
uh huh

[m1]
they try to make us think we crazy
but I know what they doin, they tryna put us back in slavery
check it, to get on welfare you gotta get your fingerprints
soon ya gotta do eyescans to get your benefits
now they got them cards to swipe, ain't no more foodstamps
shoulda seen it comin, now it's too late to get amped
and everything got a barcode
so they know what you got, when you got it, and what you still owe
you seen them projects, lately you better watch it
why they got us surrounded if money is the object?
why they use satellites to keep track of the criminals?
why they puttin jails in schools, is it subliminal?
cameras everywhere to protect us from one another
or is it the undercover, disguised as big brother
and even freedom of speech is limited
mad leaders done spoke up, and look at what these crackas did

(chorus)

[m1]
and you ain't got to believe me
go 'head and listen to bush
the dope pusher on the t.v
what you think the war is for?
cause the greedy wantin more and more
we be hustlin the corridor
I would never join the military
one soldier to another, nigga holla if ya hear me
goin out to the best sons and daughters
don't be a lamb gettin led to the slaughter
I'ma keep ridin when my momma released
cause ain't no stoppin us now, dawg
freedom before peace
ugh
they got a plan for us?
we got a plan for them
and this time we gon' win
who in? you out? you in?
no doubt, we men
ain't no ridin the fence
It's called self-defense
It makes sense
when they tell us we gotta shackles on our brains (say what?)
I'll be damned if I sit here and let them put us back in chains

(singing)
at the bonfires of the city
I've seen blood (stic.man - a'what?...)
blood (stic.man - a'what?...)
blood (stic.man - a'what?...)

I love you, Slacker! :D :D :D

First, the bad:

In the writing posted by Cegerer, I see phrases like this:

"you are a bigger group of fools than anyone imagined"

"you are not just acting foolish, you are delusional"

"I am ashamed for you"

Those passages were found in the first paragraph. And I wonder if anyone thinks it ironic that the point of the writing is to suggest that vitriol is not constructive.

And before I start with the good, I have to report in all honesty that I abhor just about every single thing about George W. Bush. I can hardly imagine a more destructive president. But hey, I'll spare you the details here.

The good: I am going to try to tone down my criticism. On it is honestly what I feel and I am not going to be dishonest or recuse myself from the American political discussion. So, you're going to continue to hear from me and some of it is going to sound as though it is disapproval. But again, I'll continue to tone professionalize my remarks.

I say "continue" because I am beginning to cool off about what happened. (by the way, I don't actually wear tights. skirts and dresses yeah, but that's another story. Never tights.) Now, some of you may reject my assertion that my nasty tone is coming down. I don't frankly care. But yeah, I became livid over what I was seeing here and talking nice was not going to cause everyone else to talk nice, so I "went ballistic." This is not an apology and it can happen again. I am not the guy to take to a meeting where something needs to be said but no one is saying it. Dubya apparently felt that someone needed to "square off" with Saddam. I felt someone needed to "square off" with some of the posters here. More than a few of you should understand this.

I don't know what to say about where Americans really are. It used to be that most Republicans were moderate, and so were most Democrats. I'd like to say that now, but I'm not sure. If the Republican party regains its good judgement and sense of responsibility and cooperation, then we'll have a better country. Similarly, if the Democratic party sets aside whatever is disenfranchising it from the people, then cooperation and progress will be the effect. But right now, the Republican party seems to have been hijacked by a bunch of (probably well-meaning but) destructive fanatics. And now, some writer things that since a Republican candidate won the presidential election, that it's time to throw stones at the losing party. Nice. Cute. Perhaps this is an example of bringing the nation together. Hmmmmm.

Anyway, notwithstanding these observations, I am going to struggle mightily to understand how, in the words of another writer, the peoples' party, the party of their parents, the party of Joe Lunchbox and Sally Waitress, is turning out in droves to vote tax breaks for billionaires. I do not understand that but will struggle to do so. For example I have heard from many folks that the Democrats are viewed as New England elitists. That would explain why Kerry was such a disappointing choice (and a choice I was not comfortable with from the start). But I also personally do not see the elitist thing. Still, it is Joe and Sally's perception I need to understand.

And I hear about many peoples' hatred for Michael Moore, and I see the writer's opinion that Democrats' spewing of hatred caused its fall. But it looks to me like both parties ran negative campaigns and it is my perception that Dubya's campaigns, both of them, have been more negative than his opponents'. MHO. So, I don't think the young writer has it all figured out yet. Nor do I.

So yeah, I'm struggling to understand, and intend to be more effective once I do. I have no hope that Dubya is going to "bring the nation together" and I believe that my nation is going to be bitterly divided until the religious fanatics who hope to shove their values down everyone else's throats are gone. I am deeply religious as most here know, so I sure do not mind religion and Christianity.

I'm out of time and should not go into detail anyway, but I will take what I can from this writer's remarks that are productive. And in contrast with some folks reverence for the remarks, I think they do have limited value. I'll be most happy to work with the writer, as he or she seems to be fairly centrist, which is the patch of ground where we will meet as a nation, once the fanatics are gone. But no, I don't think Democrats, even wildly liberal ones, expressing their views during this campaign season, was the problem. If you look down my finger as though it were the barrel of a gun, you'll see the fanatics who are pushing prayer in school, use of public funds to underwrite for-profit "charter" schools, outlaw abortion, outlaw gay marriage, eliminate environmental regulations as "voodoo science" while insisting that creationism be taught in place of evolution (and by the way, I am a creationist as well as a person who accepts Natural Selection as a fact), squeezing workers wage and overtime entitlements, eliminating workers' rights to fair treatment and collective bargaining wherever possible, creating tax breaks for every abominable antisocial profiteering activity that is attractive to industry, etc etc. While you allow those people to take control of your beloved Republican party, while you allow those people to shove their agenda down everyone else's throats, you're going to be part and parcel of the obscenity of ripping this nation apart. When you are in control, young man or young woman, and you want to bring your centrist ideas to a legitimate and inclusive table where the fairly minor differences between our parties can be negotiated and resolved, then I'll be there waiting. Until then your agenda, and mine, is being hijacked.

Gotta go.

Well said ...

I have seen a few posts about the trouncing of Kerry. WTF 51 to 48 % is not a trouncing. Carter vs Reagan was a trouncing.
I am a Democrat now because I am not a born again, I don't want prayer in schools, nor charter schools getting government money and I don't like Micheal Moore at all. I am concerned with the Bush plan which keeps on spending money like its going out of style.

I listened to Bush's speech and his talk of reaching out to all of America. Then he listed of the programs and plans that I don't agree with one bit. I guess he wasn't reaching out very far nor has any intent to. Just more of the same, so I guess I'll wait until the next election to see where we all stand, better or worse than we are now as time will tell.

Geoff

:confused:

It strikes me that this is much of the thinking of the left.

Quite obviously, superman there, is much more a religious man than I am, yet, you (Geoff) are quick to give his politics a pass . .. and mine . .well, you know. ;)

Interestingly, super is pushing more of the "love thy neighbor" (words, not necessarily actions) and the Bush conservatives are pushing the "know thy self" self responsibility.

Which is why, I suppose, that some "religion" goals get a pass by some.

just a ramble.. ..