Thanks, Craig. I understand sampling and data and induction versus deductions, etc. The Washington State data point was just an example, of which there are many others. My suspicion is that liberalism and education are positively correlated. You said there are more poor, uneducated democrats than republicans. I just think it would be interesting to see more than just your WAG (wild guess) and mine.

Actually, while I feel as though I'm noticing that education is positively correlated with liberalism, I also think you may be correct. Perhaps we both are. I suspect that, among those holding masters and doctorate degrees, the majority are liberal thinkers. But I also think that the democratic party has historically been the traditional party of Joe Lunchpail. It makes perfect sense to me that salt-of-the-Earth folks would vote democratic. In fact, until these last few years, it has been the republican party which was considered elitist. It has been the party of the affluent. So, I'm not denying that a major support base for the democratic party has been Joe Lunchpail and Sally Waitress, who are not highly educated.

I don't care if Halliburton sets a new world record for profits. What i care about are things like the eroding buying power of wages. For a good number of years now, the buying power of the dollar has fallen faster than wages. So, we're becoming less and less well off, even if we do get a 6% raise every two or three years. Programs to help folks are dying because we cannot afford them. I mentioned recently a program to treat, on an outpatient basis, mentally ill folks in the Spokane area who are so severaly ill that they actually should be hospitalized. That's just a tiny example. Halliburton is not as vulerable as we are, and not NEARLY as vulnerable as those sick people are, and not nearly as vulnerable as we all will be when these people have no treatment but we expect them to get by somehow. Pretty soon, Halliburton should look into the security business. Drugs and mental illness results in crime. We pull funding for one, we'll need to spend more to deal with the other. Military, military contractors, police services, these kinds of things already comprise a striking proportion of jobs and dollars in our society. And the way things are going, we're going to need more cops. That's a happy thought for a certain sector of society, and it's not Joe Lunchpail or Sally Waitress. Richard Cheney, yes. Joe Lunchpail, no.

If the terrorism problem were solved/handled, a lot of people would lose money. Like, our president and vice president, for example.

I can't produce the data the defines the education levels of both parties, but I read it somewhere that, on average, the GOP is more educated.

Now if you look at universtiies, where the faculty are predominantly Democrats, you can certainly make the argument that there are many geniuses on the left (though it's offset somewhat by a glut of morons in the entertainment business).

On Halibuton, I am a direct competitor with that outfit as I am employed by Bechtel. I don't resent them getting work for these reasons. There are a finite number of engineers. If Haliburton gets a huge contract, whether by nefarious means or not (one would hope fairly!), they need to staff those projects from the finite pool of engineers. Meaning maybe some will migrate to that company from Bechtel or Fluor or Parsons or where ever they work. Bottom line is work for engineers. Tax revenue for the US treasury. More funds available for your program in Spokane.

As far as Cheney and W (or their cronies) profiting from Iraq, that's just a little too cynical for my thinking. I didn't think the Clintons profited from Bosnia or Bush 41 from Dessert Storm. It's just not something I ponder.

I don't see those guys sitting around in a cabinet meeting saying to each other "hey, we can make a killing if we invade Iraq. And we can make it look like their fault!"

I'm more cylical than you. I have attended the meetings you say you don't envision. Never been to a presidential cabinet meeting, but I have found that it's incredibly naive to believe that humans can manage contracts with nine and ten-digit dollar figures, and not engage in tomfoolery. That's putting it nice. I work for Parsons, BTW. And the agency uses revenue that's not taxes. It's a long story.

I used to poopoo conspiracy theorists. Even today, they often go further than I go. But frankly, even the ones who sound wild-eyed crazy, are closer to the truth than their critics.

Quote:
"Bush won in 2004, but lost among the best educated states in general"

Would those be the states that elected people like Barbara "I can have gun gun but you can't" Feinstien, Hillary Clinton, Teddy the murderer Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, Charlie Schumer and yes even the admitted war criminal John Kerr? If so then our system for education has become one of indoctrination. This is the kind of situation the term "educated fool" was meant to describe. I'm sure we all know someone with a PHD who can't find his way back & forth to work. Remember, education is no substitute for intelligence.

I can understand that the awarding of large contracts carries with it some amount of unethical behavior. We just lost a $500MM pipeline job when we couldn't agree on the terms and conditions - one of those being our refusal to engage in any kind of kickbacks or buy offs with local authorities.

I just can't get my arms around the idea of starting a war for profits. I can understand prolonging a war, just not the outright invasion of a country to make money.

Thanks for making the point about education and intelligence. I mean obviously they are positively correlated so the average graduate will be smarter than the average non-graduate, but your point about the existence of idiots with degrees is a correct one. They are out there. That people don't understand this and assume Bush's MBA means something troubles me. I know people who think he pretends to be stupid. So he pretended to do badly on his SAT too I suppose? I recently heard that a large portion of the student learning center at my university is devoted to athletes. So they get constant special help to continue doing well so they can compete. I've heard numerous reports of private schools inflating grades because students don't want to pay 30 grand a year for a C. Add this to the fact that some special idiots still get degrees without any help like this, and it's not hard at all to imagine that Bush's MBA might not mean much. I'm not quite sure that I haven't eaten animals smarter than our president.

Rats often eat their young.

Clinton himself said to underestimate W's intelligence at your peril.

The left lives in an echo chamber. They hear "Bush is stupid" and it reverberates amongst their friends and co-workers (and inside their hollow melons) so it must be true.

You are the minority party - get used to it. The Democrats are circling the drain. Now if you'll just make another hard turn to the left and nominate that genius Hillary, Ralph Nader will track you down and the party of Roosevelt and Kennedy will go the way of the Whigs and the Dodo bird (pun intended).

Yargk, I think you missed the point. My correlation was to point out that these more highly educated states seem to elect worthless buffoons. As for your home state, for anyone represented by Diane Feinstien & Barbara Boxer has more nerve than intellect to scold the USA for electing Bush. So cry in your granola if you must but at least in this example, higher education doesn't seem to equate to better reasoning.

The distribution of education levels among Democrat voters is an inverse bell curve.

The most educated (advanced degrees) and the least educated (HS and 'some HS') both voted for Kerry. The big 'middle' voted for Bush.

There are a lot of reasons the ''middle' voted for Bush, but many can be traced to the propaganda machine that is Drudge/Rush/Fox. Since xx,000,000 Americans seem to confuse entertainment with information, they bought in to a whole program of 'security, morality and conservatism' that is demonstrably missing from the people and policies of the Bush administration. In the long view of history, this will be an ethical low point in modern US politics. And yet the great 'middle' is being kept completely unaware of what's really going on.

Amen Brother! It's hard to stomach how much damage that triumvirate is doing to our country, all for ratings, all for $. I watch my fair share of Fox and it's really disheartening to see how far these people can twist the message all for personal gain. I really don't think it has much to do with pushing the Right's political agenda anymore, like everything else in this country, it's about making a buck.

I have personal knowledge of one 'highly regarded' pundit who absolutely does not believe in any of the paranoid right-wing cr*p he spews, but says "that's where the money is." I've noticed he's gotten a little more sober and quiet over the last couple of years, though. Maybe his conscience is catching up with him.

This idea that we're buying into propganda is not 100% accurate. I listen to Lumbaugh sometimes and read the Drudge report often, but they have admitted to being right wing! They don't hide that fact. In fact they advertise it!

I don't formulate my opininons based on their material. I already had those opinions going in!!

What I can't stomach, is the rest of the media with their left agenda passing themselves off as objective.

And Tech, security, morality and conservatism are relative terms (maybe not security). I would submit that the Bush administration would be more conservative than a Kerry admin would have been. Also more secure and moral, but that would be a heated debate.

Craig, do you think the rest of the country can be as discerning? I've lived all over the place, grown-up very blue collar, lower middle class, move up a class or two along the way, only one in my family to go to college. I've met these people, I've lived with these people, I don't think they can. They buy Fox etc. because it is both entertaining and plays to the lowest common denominator.

Have you ever watched Aaron Brown at 10PM (EST) on CNN? He is as middle of the road as you get, an excellent reporter/anchor. I think Blitzer is pretty Right these days BTW.

I guess one has to define 'conservative.' Record deficits are not conservative in my book. Growing the size of government by 300,000 jobs is not 'conservative' in anybody's book.

The issue of security is demonstrable: the world is less secure than it was on 9/12/01 by virtue of both the number of terrorist attacks and the body count -- according to the administration's own calculations.

The lies, secrecy and patronage of this admininstration surpasses all perevious administrations. But than, I guess for some, 'morality' has to be defined, as well.

Like you say, a potentially heated argument.

I do think the American people can be discerning. I'm counting on it! This country elected Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter within 4 years of each other. We elected Kennedy and Nixon, Clinton and Bush. The Dems held power for 40 years and now the GOP has held sway since '94.

America is able to pick great leaders, then we'll lose our minds and pick poor ones (no names please!)

BTW, I would submit that there are more liberal reporters at Fox than there are conservative reporters in the rest of the media (I'm just talking about reporters and not pundits).

Quick aside: Watching Fox News now.

Reporting on a soldier who asked Rumsfeld if they were ever going to get better armor for their humvees. Runsfeld in a press conference today said that soldier's question may lead to some changes and they may get the armor.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!

Of all the people who should have turned in a resignation, this buffoon is at the top of the list!

Weenie said;
"The issue of security is demonstrable: the world is less secure than it was on 9/12/01 by virtue of both the number of terrorist attacks and the body count -- according to the administration's own calculations. "

List for me the thousands of Americans that have died from terrorism post 9/11.

You arrogant idiots think that you can "see through" the horrendous right wing spin of Fox. But offer no such comparison for the criminal left wing media such as c BS & Dan Blather. If you were as smart as you are arrogant you'd cure cancer & fix Windows before sundown.

I don't believe Bush is stupid. He is, and has admitted himself, to appealing to the uninformed.

That is where education (rather than intelligence) fits in. The people who voted for Bush are uninformed about Iraq, and Islam and the middleast (do they know that most american arabs are christian? do they know that Muslims <a href src="http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/"> believe Jesus is the Messiah? </a> Do they know that 95% of Muslims are non-Arab?.
This is exemplified by the fact that they overwhelmingly believe that
1) Saddam Hussein was was directly responsible for the WTC incident (a patent falsity)
2) Saddam Hussein not only had WMDs but USED them against us during the invasion (also false)
3) Saddam Hussein launched SCUD missiles against us in 2003(false)
4) These missiles were shot down by Patriot missiles (false)
5) Iraq had nukes (very false)

These folks are uninformed. They are uneducated not stupid, because the government has lied to them. That doesn't make you stupid. It makes you a victim. They tend not to question information, which is the real value of higher education. The point of higher education is to train people to think on their own, not just memorizing multiplication tables. Some go to college and don't learn it, some don't go to college and learn it through experience, but you can't deny the fundamental curiosity of those seeking to be educated makes them more likely to question the facts.

Also: <a href src="http://www.topalli.com/blue/education.html> education levels are lower in red states </a>


also by state, red states universially have fewer degrees and more dropouts. They are directly correlated.

For those who wanted proof:
<img src="http://www.topalli.com/blue/blue/higherEd.gif" >

data is from available census data, and information given at the Missouri ACT national conference.


here it is as a cartogram
<img src="http://www.topalli.com/blue/blue/education.gif" >

sorry here are the links
Muslims believe Jesus is Messiah
<a href src="http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/">http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/ </a>
http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/

degrees: www.topalli.com/blue/degrees.html

<img src="http://www.topalli.com/blue/blue/higherEd.gif" width="543" height="522">

cartogram www.topalli.com/blue/education.html
http://www.topalli.com/blue/blue/edumacated.gif

<img src="http://www.topalli.com/blue/blue/edumacated.gif" width="661" height="590">