1 man, 1 question...

[M.D. Holloway]

Shaun,
I have aided in penning several mil-specs (now AMS) for Northrup, Lockheed and MD - they take any where from a few months to a few years to do, not the mention much of the testing required. If you are designing your battle armour for one type of foe and another appears that renders your stuff obsolete - tough.

The funding was in question becuase the warfare equipment was designed for one type of battle, this conflict with the roadside bombs and so forth lends itself for fighting a different way using different equipment. The US DOD can spin fast but not that fast.

[john70t]

If one had millions in Haliburton stock options, I guess one wouldn't worry about "winning" the war anytime soon (I mean the war overseas, not the one against part of the American public).

[island911]

Originally posted by dd74
.. .
The larger picture that this points to is a lack of preparation for this war; a lack of study of the enemy and the potential of peripheral instigators spilling over the border. . . .

Hmmm. . .I can almost agree, but two little details. The "war" part of this has gone fine, now the planning for dealing with the Bathests and the terrorists spilling over the border . . . that is apparent . . though I believe that we have enough US troops there. (the Iraqiis need incentive to step-up themselves) And, for the bigger problematic detail; show me a SAFER war.

Which speaks right to that loaded question; and how it's easy to ask, 'why can't this be made safer? . . .. I'm for MORE safety and LESS danger . ..

envelope please . . .and the Captain Obvious Award goes to . .. the G9 Girl.

Sad that some here seem to think that they have the cutting-edge answers.('for, more good but wait, there's more; less bad too.) As if there has been some gross oversight to the issue of War Safety.

Again, show me a SAFER war.

[island911]

Originally posted by john70t
If one had millions in Haliburton stock options, I guess one wouldn't worry about "winning" the war anytime soon (I mean the war overseas, not the one against part of the American public).

Cheney has already made millions. His concerns now, surely are his health, and leaving a better world for his offspring.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by island911
. .. the G9 Girl.

G9Girl is one word.

[RoninLB]

The Army wants to spend it. The procurement bs that the lefties put in place might be ok in peace time, but not war time. They fight every step that will help Bush in this current war.

After 'Nam the Rep's slowly got filtered out of power. Carter is the most obvious. Not so obvious was Frank Church and his Church Commitee that started the casturation of the CIA. The college educated boomers becoming Dem's was a major turning point in the Dem party. Boomers now control the country in one way or the other. "Make love, not war" is the left's current position. There is more case officers in the NYC FBI than the CIA has in the whole world. The Dem's current intellengicia wants to model an election with a "war" basis, only different than Bush's mode, in order to have a win. The only wrench in their soup is the policy of premption. They haven't addressed that yet.

bottom line, the pre-'Nam Dem party is no more. Big hugs everyone.

[Moneyguy1]

Weren't Roosevelt and Truman Democrats?

Sadly, those who most ardently advocate war have never seen it up close and personal.

And, the saddest people in the world are those who, even when faced with factual data, still stick to their preconceived ideas, no matter how many times they have been proven flawed.

I have seen two types of posters here. Some advocate a position, based upon supposition, conjecture, opinion, etc, dare people to prove them wrong. When faced with factual data, they parse it into ever smaller pieces until the entire argument becomes irrelevant. Then they claim victory when the saner respondents realize the game is going nowhere and quit the fray. Others, supplied with a reasonable scenario other than theirs, consider it and adapt as necessary. Of course, those are generally referred to as "liberals" or "the far left", labels taking the place of cogent arguments.

Interesting dichotomy.

[CRH911S]

How the hell are you supposed to armour humvees when Halliburton's margins are only 800%? Get real people!

island911 do you get it yet

[lendaddy]

Jumping in late here, but what exactly is the charge here? Since you can never be totally prepared in war, is it just that you want to hear our leaders proclaim the occasional failure or mistake from the mountain top?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Jumping in late here, but what exactly is the charge here? Since you can never be totally prepared in war, is it just that you want to hear our leaders proclaim the occasional failure or mistake from the mountain top?

Hey Joel,

No, we just don't want them to lie about mistakes.

My original post was just to show that one person really can make a difference, not much more. This situation was just an elegant example.

Corollary: questioning authority is a good thing! Doesn't matter whose side you are on.

[lendaddy]

Shaun,

From what I read we had gone from 600-800 Up-Armored HumVees to over 10,000 in the last 16 months. It's not not like they were ignoring these guys.

[red ufo]

I think the point is. Dumbsfield was about to be fired. Or I mean announce his resignation from the Bush oil corporations, I mean WH. But he stayed on and 1st press op lied to his own troops on armour. It could have been any subject but in this case is was an armour question.

This whole thing has should Dumbsfield will lie, has lied, and is a liar to his own troops. How can you support such a disconnected person from reality, and something he should be an expert on, is a rookie out of touch.

[lendaddy]

What was the "lie"?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I would agree, they are not being ignored, but articles like this are real:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/10/us_stance_on_armor_disputed/

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/12/11/a1.armor.1211.html

But it's not newspaper articles that tell me the real story. It's that soldiers really are picking though junkheaps scavenging for armor and have been for a very long time. It's that a soldier asked the question, the logic being that it the story had no merit, he wouldn't have asked... can you imagine going up against Don Rumsfeld? That guy's got balls, ones that were strengthened with conviction.

But that's not even the straw that broke the camel's back, because 1 guy is just too few data points to stake a position and make it stick.

No, it was the crowd of soldiers' reaction to the question. That tells it all.

It's tough to hear Rumsfeld say we are doing all we can and have contractors AND soldiers on the ground contradict that statement.

I really expect more from our administration, especially when campaigning was so heavily weighted on "we're the guys you can trust to get the job done right in Iraq."

[M.D. Holloway]

My old man told me that in WWII during the BoB, they were also ill equiped - they were issued a pair of socks designed for the tropics. Many solders used to take socks off dead Germans - they were made of wool. Guess the old boy couldn't bring him self to do it and ended up getting frost bite of the toes - still has no feeling in them. There are many orher examples of "making due". Thats war...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Mike, that's one of my points. Years ago you could say, "that's war..." But not today and not in a war we chose, one we prepped for, one that is miniscule in comparison to something like WWII, one in which technology (in all forms) makes the statement "that's war" just not good enough.

But that's not even it. If armor plate production really were at full capacity, I'd be OK with that. there's no story there. But it wasn't, and Rumsfeld and Bush lied about it.

[M.D. Holloway]

prudent points - I really can't think of any war that was like the one before - in tactics or eqpt needs. Even the police actions in the Caribe, S & C America and Korea.
Thing is, even the rev war, 1812 and the Civ war showed serious problems in morale, equipment and leadership. Thing was, not many heard about it.

[island911]

Originally posted by CRH911S
island911 do you get it yet

Why sure; it was a curious time, when it frist happened, after it was raining, getting it all muddy, and unrecognizable as a coherent sentence.

[Moneyguy1]

Island:

Respectfully; on a previous post in this thread you made a statement to the effect that the "war" went fine. I would submit that what is going on is still the same war, only a different phase.

Please consider that the Vietnam "conflict" also had insurgents and much time and effort was expended hunting them down.

Thankfully, so far, there have been fewer limits placed upon tactics allowed than in some other confrontations. Hard to fight without the equipment and with off-limit target opportunities.

Len: The "lie" was the statement by the SecDef that production was at capacity. Please note I put in quotes, since lie may be a bit harsh. We all have said things at one time or another without checking the facts first, only to have it come back and bite us in the butt. And yes, admitting that "mistakes have been made" (a clever statement of non guilt guilt if there ever was one) would be appropriate.

[M.D. Holloway]

Invade a country, a middle-beastern one at that, and less than 2000 of ours die? You can ill-equip me anyday.