Tax-n-Spend vs. Borrow-n-spend

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77

Taxing us to spend on "social programs" that puts my chink into crack mommas hands is vile. Taxing me to spend money on schooling the crack babies is honorable.

I agree. From a social perspective, we have cycles whether determined by race, class, genetics, etc. Spending to break those cycles is the silver bullet.

Problem is, liberals are more like enablers when it comes to spending and conservatives mostly serve to crush any spirit of hope.

I think combining the best of the two with social programs that are based on self-discipline is the key. Understanding root cause and then correcting it takes long-term vision, something that can only be accomplished by a second-term President who cares more about the country's future than the party line. Sadly, I don't think it's on our current President's agenda. We need either a fiscally conservative Democrat or socially liberal Republican to pull this off.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
conservatives mostly serve to crush any spirit of hope.

I don't know whether to be more pissed at people who believe this, or at my party for allowing this idea to propagate amongst the voters. Nothing could be further from the truth.

By the way, Bush has spent like a Kennedy on social programs! Not that I agree with them, but damnit! What's it gonna take to get rid of this false belief that we are cold hearted bastards?

Would it help if we bit our lower lip and told you that we feel your pain?

[widebody911]

Originally posted by lendaddy
What's it gonna take to get rid of this false belief that we are cold hearted bastards?

The shoe seems to fit very well.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by widebody911
The shoe seems to fit very well.

Classic.

I was discussing this very subject with one of my partners last night. You guys just refuse to look at facts, and rather prefer your preconceived notions that we are "mean".

If Clinton had spent as much a Bush has on AIDS research, he would have been hailed as a saint. But no, all we hear is "Bush hates fags".

Pathetic, and proves you don't really care about the substance of helping people, only its potential as a vehicle toward regaining power.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by lendaddy
I don't know whether to be more pissed at people who believe this, or at my party for allowing this idea to propagate amongst the voters. Nothing could be further from the truth.

By the way, Bush has spent like a Kennedy on social programs! Not that I agree with them, but damnit! What's it gonna take to get rid of this false belief that we are cold hearted bastards?

Would it help if we bit our lower lip and told you that we feel your pain?

these stereotypes don't materialize out of thin air, a lot of time, $ and work goes into building them. Hey, the liberals are crybabies who waste money on crack whores, at least that's what I am supposed to be.

What's it gonna take? get rid of people like Jim DeMint, DeLay, Limbaugh, Colmes, etc. These are not good people who think more about pushing their personal agenda than one for our country. We've got a whole list on our side too.

[widebody911]

WTF?
The party whose rallying cries are

• turn the mideast to glass
• punch the pinko liberal tree huggers
• you're either with us or against us
• f*ck the overpaid factory workers, we're sending their jobs to Taiwan
• f*ck the environment, we're here to make money

...now has their panties in a bunch because they created an image for themselves as a bunch of hardass tightwads?

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
What's it gonna take? get rid of people like Jim DeMint, DeLay, Limbaugh, Colmes, etc. These are not good people who think more about pushing their personal agenda than one for our country. We've got a whole list on our side too.

Those are the folks who are looking for ratings and selling books - just a different product but still a great example of a free market capitalistic flav.

Say what you want but GW et al are Texan Republicans - which means 'set the agenda to help bidness and the town/county/state can work out the rest'. The thinking is, if bidness does well, jobs follow which means more bass boats bought, vacations taken, casino $$$ lost and the whole host of stuff that the low/mid class buys and does.

Still - with the exception of a few selected pockets in this country that have had their share of job loss to Asia, I just haven't seem the jobless problem is any of the factories I visit. OT is stilllavailable and all the blues I talk with share stories of their trips to the casinos, deer leases, fishing trips and vacations. Many (not all) also talk about their kids that are in college (private and state).

So, help me out - hearing the doom & gloom from the left got me concerned - but I can't find it!

Feel your pain? *****! Show me the pain them maybe I (we) will change my (our) minds or at least be more sympathtic!

[hardflex]

connect the dots and you can see the "Borrow and Spend" increasing the "velocity" of money out of the country,

from an LA Times article.......
"Already depressed by the nation's huge budget and trade deficits, the U.S. dollar is being undermined by American mutual fund investors: More of them are funneling money into foreign stock funds, a shift that hurts the greenback.

Thanks in large part to the dollar's weakness, returns on foreign shares overall have significantly outpaced U.S. market returns since 2002. Foreign stock mutual funds have gained 12% a year, on average, over the last three years, compared with a 4.9% average annual gain for domestic stock funds, according to Morningstar Inc. "

I must say, the business my wife's in is booming. But she's in Mortgage reposessions so when her business is up it's a sign of a bad economy.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by widebody911
The party whose rallying cries are

• turn the mideast to glass
• punch the pinko liberal tree huggers
• you're either with us or against us
• f*ck the overpaid factory workers, we're sending their jobs to Taiwan
• f*ck the environment, we're here to make money

I didn't see you at the official meeting.

We covered more than that, ain't no one going to heaven but us.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77

So, help me out - hearing the doom & gloom from the left got me concerned - but I can't find it!

Michael, I don't think the below is particularly good news especially considering Bush won with majority populace confidence and therefore you'd expect a significant corresponding uptick in purchasing confidence.

December 22, 2004

Retail Sales Decline 5.9 Percent For Week Ending December 18
ShopperTrak's National Retail Sales Estimate (NRSE) reported that U.S. retail sales for the week ending December 18 fell 5.9 percent as compared to the same week in 2003, with combined Saturday and Sunday sales falling 3.3 percent versus the same two-day period last year. While the Saturday before Christmas is typically the number one shopping day of the holiday season, preliminary reports show that Black Friday may have been stronger in 2004, just as it was in 2003. Prior to last year, the Saturday before Christmas was the most popular shopping day of the season three consecutive years.

"While there is some concern regarding the continued retail sluggishness this season, consumers have an additional two days this year to finish their holiday shopping, which may boost this season's final retail performance," said Michael Niemira, chief economist and director of research for the International Council of Shopping Centers. " Retailers should remain optimistic as sales momentum is likely to finish the month of December much stronger than it has been tracking through mid-month as last minute shoppers and post-Christmas gift card redeemers come out in force."

Initial estimates indicate that Saturday's sales performance was down nearly 7.0 percent as compared to the same shopping day last year. To date, average weekly sales for December, versus the same period last year, fell 3.4 percent.

Developed by ShopperTrak, the NRSE provides a nationwide benchmark of retail sales. It is derived from the U.S. Commerce Department's GAFO (general merchandise, apparel, furniture, sporting goods, electronics, hobby, books and other related store sales) statistic, as well as ShopperTrak's proprietary industry intelligence on shopper movement and sales statistics.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by RoninLB
I've been trying to connect $ velocity and $ multipler to give you a hard answer. It seems the terms may be connected and may be Not connected. It also seems like the terms may have different specific meaning. It seems like the wording is peticuliar to the subject where it's used. A specific company may use the term velocity as sales costs minus variable costs.

...

An interesting read is about the current large econonic growth in Austrialia.

Ron, thanks so much for this excellent write-up, very interesting stuff.

What exactly do you mean by "My percetion is that Bush is making socialist Europe pay for the growth in the US, India, and China. Socialist Europe wants to try to balance US power. It's costing them big time to play this game."

The value of the Euro is at a 29-month high and check this article out in the International Herald Tribune: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/15/bloomberg/sxlynn.html
on how Europe is benefitting from trade with China.

I couldn't find an exact $ amount on US exports to China, but I recall Germany, Britain and France export more to China than we do.

[M.D. Holloway]

Retail down turn is a bad thing for guys like you for sure. But let’s take a broader look - is it down because of less disposable income or because of the psychology of lack of discretionary income.

People buy for a few different reasons and they also don’t buy for various reasons. Basing the economy on the spending habits of a typical American is, like forecasting the stock market according to the length of the mini skirt or gauging manufacturing on the amount of metal cutting fluid purchased. Both a fools’ errand. There are too many independent variables at play.

Retail spending poses no real indicator other than merchants have to gauge and figure what to do next in order to thwart sales erosion and increase market share. Better spin, create the next fad, and figure what is cool and what sticks. Sorry to say but personal buying and economic prowess are not connected. Just because you can buy doesn’t mean you will. That, my liberal friend is a dangerous myth that we best expose.

I would get nervous if buying went up without any forethought. That would suggest that many folks were not being fiscally responsible or worse, increased credit was getting the best of them.

[Moneyguy1]

Look at the recent statisics re: people's worries about their credit indebtedness. Folks are running out of options to continually "refinance". When that happens, either they curtail their spending or go the bankruptcy route.

AS far as govt spending is concerned, the feds are the only ones who can operate with a deficit. State and local governments cannot. Interesting, ain't it?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Velocity?

[frogger]

Maybe we can offshore the printing of US currency.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by frogger

Maybe we can offshore the printing of US currency.

by the same folks now doing US Passports.

[frogger]

It would put the manufacture of US dollars closer to the people who will actually own them. Now that's capitalism in action!

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by tabs

Don't you boyz get it.....Clintons tax surplus was due to the fact that the government was taking in more tax revenues than it was spending due to a robust economy...which by the begining of 2000 was begining to turn into a Recession....so that no matter who became President in 2000 (Gore vs Bush), he would be faced with shrinking tax revenues due to a decling economy..

Now as it happened Bush won the election in 2000 and was faced with a recession, there are 2 things you can do to stimulate the economy besides lowering interest rates...one is increase Federal Spending or Cut taxes to stimulate spending....Bush chose tax relief...

Then Bingo along comes 911.. an event that nearly capsized the whole financial system.... what was done was the lowering of interest rates 7 time to a 1% Fed Rate, Tax Relief and NOT CUTTING the Federal Budget...all in the face of Declining tax revenues and having to fight a war on terrorism...

Then on top of that..you have the Enron scandal...which further depressed things alltogether....

Now the hope is that when the economy picks up steam tax revenues will increase and the budget deficeit will go away..or lessen.

Now can you boyz understand why a fiscal conservatyive like Bushy would be willing to be considered a spendthrift....the last Repblican President that cut Federal spending during an economic downturn was Herbert Hoover and you all should at least know what happened then...The Great Depression of the 1930's.

Gawd! How I hate to admit this...but Tabbydoll nailed it.

[john70t]

What I-wrek represents is a complete disregard/sabotage for the future of an ideal, and the people to maintain it.

Social issues and numbers come and go, but the real engine of an economic machine is it's resources, and "now" would have been the time.

All those missing pallets of cash should easily have been turned into mass-transit systems, ports, alternative energy programs, recycling programs, preserving the (non track-housing) farmland, expanding national parks (future resources), lowering educational costs, etc, etc.....

-Want industry? We have the materials, the technology, and the brains to produce it.
-Worldwide oil crisis? We have other energy sources, efficient transportation methods, and workers who can get to their jobsites with ease.
-Worldwide food crisis? Our farms are plentyful and producing.

Instead- the dollar is being tossed around like toilet paper rolls, the middle class is loosing its sustainability, and the US economy remains centered around a dwindling energy source.
Seeing what Singapore and Japan were able to create and sustain out of almost nothing shows what will happen when the US runs out of the "excess" we are so busy pissing away.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Gawd! How I hate to admit this...but Tabbydoll nailed it.

+1