Ok, I went back and reread the initial post thinking maybe I missed something, but alas no I didn't. Soooo I'm a little unclear as to how you could be offended by what he said. It was just pretty generic Christian stuff. That's what they believe, so what???? If you disagree you just smile a happy little smile and walk on by. Maybe being exposed to it my whole life has made me more accepting of it? Who knows.

I wasn't offended by the xtain talk...it was the use of the word "we" when talking about this forum.

As for the anti-xtian, some here are somewhat venomnous, but imho people get rankled by the messenger rather than the message. In my experience, "real" xtians don't proselytize or harangue the masses (or more specifically, the non-believers). For instance, Dan and I have had many very civil exchanges on literal interpretations of the bible and other religious topics. I don't get from him a sense that he's trying to "save me", but rather that he is joining into a well-measured discussion of a topic that has no rational answer (but does have emotional ones). Faith is just that...faith. Reason does not come into play. And that is just fine for some people, and not for others.

This is what gets me:

"If you want to be in this Kingdom consider what I just shared, go to the Bible and learn more about it. The first resurrection from the dead is for those who are part of this Kingdom; you don’t want to be a part of the second resurrection. Everyone will be part of one or the other."

Is he coming right out and calling me an effing heathen? No, he's doing it in a much more subtle fashion, basically telling me that either I'm part of his cult or I'm damned...

I'd rather be damned and make a choice that is MY choice rather than one imposed by secular religous pressure.

Think of it this way: if I walked up to you and said (in a deadly serious fashion...) that only air cooled Porsche's are the one true sports car and you drove a 944 - better still you drove a Ferrari - or rode a bike and as such you'd never know the true joy or pleasure of driving a real sports car, you'd have something to say about it right? Even if all you said was "well, that just means I wont have the pleaure of driving an air cooled Porsche". Now extrapolate that out to someone telling you that you're going to burn in hell if you dont' join their cult and follow their lifestyle. Yeah, I kind of find that insulting.

Sorry, no smile or wave and moving on... I see no reason I should have to put up with that Christian (or Muslim, or Judaic, or Buddhist Taoist Zoroastrianist Hindu insert your favorite religion here) crap any more than he should have to put up with my arguments against organized religion.

If he wants to have a debate, that's one thing. That's not what it was IMHO.

I think you are personalizing it too much. Everything he said is what I understand the faith to believe. Would you rather he lie to you? Should he be prevented from speaking the tennants of his religion? He didn't attack you personally, so don't take it that way. That's my opinion anyway.

Sorry for using "we". It was not my intent to insult anyone or to claim membership to something I have no right to.

Yes, the mainstream religion crowd does not tell this story and some Christians will not believe it. I doubt the watchtower crowd believes it either, I can’t say for sure (and I am not saying the watchtower crowd is not Christian.). Anyway, if you are interested in the Bible then check it out, if it’s not your cup of tea then leave it alone. Time will tell if what I wrote is true…you can say you heard it hear first.

I know nothing about the Porsche 911, that’s why I am here. This is a great site. So until I now something about this car I doubt you will see many more posts from me. If that means I am a non-member that’s fine and its not an insult to me.

This will be my last post about religion and likely my only post in the Open Forum. It would have been hypocritical for me to sit here and not make a comment when I saw several individuals making good comments in regards to the subject matter. I just had to share what I believe…and to share that I had seen things get out of hand elsewhere. I thought my post fit right into what I had been reading.

I only made a few posts on the other site too. I made a similar post on that site and got similar comments from the group. I have a 96 Mercedes E320 with 140,000 miles and love working on it; it’s my fourth Benz. I buy my parts at MercedesParts.com. German engineering is the best; I want a Porsche too.

Well, I guess I will go back to the tech forums to learn about a car I will purchase someday. You will likely not hear from me again in the Open Forum and only elsewhere when I have something to share that I think will be a benefit to the site (I know how to use the search feature). I doubt my next post will turn into a three-page tread...however this tread was rather smashing .:cool:

Its always the uber religious people who want to do away with things. You don't like something, not good enuff not to click on the thread, or turn the TV channel off, or turn the radio dial. You have to complain so the entire item is takin' away from us heathens and spoil all the fun.

If you look some of venom is coming for your 'people' at the ones who aren't like them.

Its like people are afraid to open the door and see the world outside, so the close the door and pretend the other side don't exit.

Hey I don't like threads that question UFO reality it hurts my religion lets do away with them to be PC.

lalallalallalal.

Don't wait to learn about the car to post. Don't be reluctant to post in off-topic. You just opened with a very emotive first post, so got a strong reaction.

Edit:
From your experience on another board, did you expect a different reaction to your original post?

Religeous People:

"Making Hell for Everybody".

The uber religious are entitled to their beliefs, they are not entitled to try and push them down our throats and then act offended when they get kicked in the groin.

When was the last time an atheist rang your door bell and tried to persuade you to stay in bed on a Sunday morning?

I dearly hope you don't think I'm being pushy. With regards to being "uber religious", I was raised in the Presbyterian church and attended every Sunday. I consider myself a Christian and try to live as such, but I can't remember the last time I went to church. It's been over a year, at least. Not that that should have anything to do with being religious, but maybe you get my point.

Offended? I am not offended by anybody who chooses a life/religion other than Christianity. I am offended when the ACLU, etc. gets involved and removes references to God from our schools, government, etc. Yes, separation of church and state is mandated in our Constitution, but that does not mean separation from God. The majority of U.S. citizens believe in God, how ever you choose to worship is up to you as it should be.

Riddle me this Batman. If you are a Christian and decide to move to a country that is largely, say Muslim, would you expect that country to change its ways just to accomodate you? I don't think so. If you move to Germany, would you expect all of Germany to learn to speak English just to make your life there easier? I wouldn't think so.

My point is, the United States is a largely God-believing country. I don't believe it is right to change the way our country is run to accomodate the relatively few citizens that are "offended" by a belief in God. If you live here and choose not to believe in God, learn to live with it. Like it or not, you are out-numbered.

You are either with us or you are against us...

I believe seperation of church and state means there should not be religious imagery in public buildings, but that is my interpretation for a multicultural society. If I am in a muslim country, I will act in a way that does not offend, but that is simply good manners. Is America a christian country or does it simply offer freedom of worship? Is Christianity the state religion? I don't thinks so, but I am neither American nor living in the USA.

How do I choose to worship? As an agnostic the question does not apply, I believe atheism is as much a religious belief as christianity although neither atheists nor agnostics worship.

I am not offended by anyone's sincerely held religious beliefs although I do wish many so called christians would act according to christian ethics. I get very annoyed; when people assume I have perforce to hold a religious belief, when they attempt to push their beliefs down my throat, or when they try to convince me of the righteousness of their belief by arguing with circular logic based on their faith, I have no respect for those that do not respect the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others.

sorry tabby, it was Marx. and the exact quote is "masses", not "people". but close enough anyway

as for those UFOs. you talkin' about the unidentified foodlike objects at the Vegas buffets? (a.k.a. mystery meat)

ROTFLMAO!!! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104425511.gif

Thanks. I don't do this very often so I really did not know what to expect. I do enjoy the light harted comments to a heavy post. I got that on the other site too. I misspelled kingdom and typed in kingdome and someone posted a picture of the stadium exploding in Seattle.

If I moved to a non-Christian county I would not try to change it but I would be ashamed if those near to me did not know I was a Christian.

I do believe the reason this is the greatest county on the earth is because it was founded on Christ. That foundation is slowly being chipped away, it will be our (or should I say its?) downfall.

And anyone can say or write or act however they want, I will not let the words or actions of someone else control how I feel or think about myself.

Ok I made another post...

Are you a Porsche owner? I don't think you are because to you it would a materialistic item of the world, and it's not good to have that, even though the leaders of " your" Christian movement live in big fancy house's and drive cars of the same nature. I like your advice from the above quote, " I will not let the words or actions of someone else control how I feel or think about myself".

So what you said in your orignal post is meanless to me

HOW DOES THE BIBLE ITSELF INSTRUCT US IN EVALUATING ITS TEXT ?

one is self explanatory. All of Jesus words were symbolic. There was nothing to be taken literally. He said that he would make things clear to his disciples and we will explain that one later. But here we see as far as the text is concerned, it is symbolic.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter but of the spirit for the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

Hardly a comment has to be made. Here you are being told as clearly as possible that you should not take the New Testament literally. In other words what you read as events never happened. Yet in understanding you will find that they happen daily within you.

Romans 2:29 He is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter.

This one is most difficult but as you can see the Bible itself is defining the word Jew. Not a flesh and blood person of lineage but something very special that exists within each and every human mind.

Psalms 78:21 I will open my mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings of old, which we have heard and known and our fathers have told us.

We have two key words here, parable and dark. Both reference symbolic text. In other words the Bible is telling us that you must begin to understand not with the brain but with the heart or the spirit. Dark sayings of old are simply words that have Hidden Meanings.

And consider this. The text was written thousands of years ago and they are talking about dark sayings "of old".

Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb and the interpretation, the words of the wise and their dark sayings.

This scripture leads off by defining the word "wisdom". Then as it shows above, wisdom is understanding symbolic writings. Again a reference to dark sayings. Text containing Hidden Meanings.

Matthew 13:34-35 All these things spoke Jesus to the multitude in parables and without a parable spoke not he unto them.

The ritual of circumcision is explained as having nothing to do with the male organ as we will also show Baptism has nothing to do with water. It is all symbolic.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord the vail shall be taken away.

The Bible here clearly says that when people read the Old Testament they do not understand it because they read it literally and it is symbolic. But when one turns to the Lord it becomes clear. One turns to the Lord only in meditation when one turns away from the intellect to the spirit on the right side. We will speak more of this but again the Bible tells us that what you see is not what is meant.

Acts 7:48 The most high dwells not in temples made with hands.

Here the Bible is saying that church buildings and temples have absolutely nothing to do with the dwelling place of God. Yet for thousands of years people have been slaughtered over the location of the temple which is made with the hands of carpenters and masons. It is all symbolic for the only temple made without hands is on top of your shoulders.

Luke 17:21 The Kingdom of God is within you.

It is not in a church or a religion. It is within you. Everything in the Bible is a mythological study of the human mind and body.

1 Corinthians 3:16 You are the temple of God. For the temple of God is Holy which temple you are.

This simply supports the above that what is considered the temple or tabernacle is actually the human mind and the entire Bible is a deep mystical study of the secrets of the human mind.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory for these are the two covenants.

Here we are told that the story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar is an allegory. It is a symbolic story. And keep in mind that the Bible in referring to this says, "which things are an allegory". It goes right along with the warning to all of us not to take scripture literally.

there should be a separate sticky "religion thread" for all this stuff. www.thesamba.com, the best vw site on the web, has one that works well to corral all the rantings that the others don't particularly want to read about. the moderators just move the errant threads into the religion thread and all is good.

John:

Can't get the link to work. Have been looking for a reasonably intelligent VW site for a while now.

Bob