We have no choice because he already knows what we will choose. If god is omnisicent, then we have no free choice. You wont win on this one.

On your second, not at all. That is the question I direct to the god botherers.

Try this.

God doesnt exist.

Say it again.

God doesnt exist.

There- doesnt that feel good?

stuart

evidence in a rational world
 

Wouldn't hundreds of witnesses be considered proof in a court of law? Hundreds saw him alive after he was crucified dead and buried for 3 days. They touched him and talked with him. This was not something to be taken lightly in those days. The witnesses to this spoke of it at great risk to life and limb and many paid the ultimate price.

As I read the text it merely means Joseph was not the father.

As an aside, virgin births for important figures is not unique to Christianity.

Re: evidence in a rational world
 

Yes, and then after forty days He ascended into the Heavens on a cloud.

Its completely plausible.

stuart

Jeees Guys, come on!! This thread has more twist and turns than Watkins Glen!

So far we have gone from believers vs non-believers, to many numerous scripture interpretation wars, to circumcision (not sure where that came from), to Noah getting fired for hitting a mountain.

Not to mention the one on one attacks as a result of comments made by either side.

Does anyone else find it troubling how you can take a place such as PP where everyone has a common interest and passion, throw one topic out (religion) and stand back and watch the daggers fly! Kinda puts a perspective on the wars throughout history that were fought based on religious behalf. I'm not saying either side was ever right, or blaming religion for even mor world problems. But ***** guys, look at what this has done to this board. Imagine countries of thousands takings dides like we few Pcar owners are doing.

Victor had it right with "Here's a nice picture of my car" ! There is no finish line in the religion race. It's kinda like running GT1 and GT3 at the same time on the same track. There can be two winners.

Someone commented on my thread reference my "passive attitude" toward forceful believers. Trust me, I had had my share of confrontations with the "others" and found the battles not worth fighting. Certainly not on the same scale, but that would be like someone trying to convinve this board that Porsche is not the greatest sports car ever built!

Like I have said before, everyone has the right of free choice. Granted, forceably imposing those choices on otehrs is not cool, but the mass majority are not that way. Imagine if we non-believers went door to door and started forcing our beliefs. We would be no more than another thorn on the bush. Two words I find very helpful.......Walk Away!

Let's get back to more important, and enjoyable things like the LA Auto show pic post, or the Grid Girls, or the Let's see this color 911. Where is Jack Olsen with his camera when we need him. Come on jack, divert this train wreck for us!!!

Only my $.02 cents (actually $.04 now) and I know this thread will continue, because they always do. Just don't forget what brought us all here in the first place......Porsches. Let's not turn Wayne's great contribution in to a freakin holy war!!

P.S. Beautiful car Victor!

Re: evidence in a rational world
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billyboy
[B]Wouldn't hundreds of witnesses be considered proof in a court of law?

there is one big problem here! hearsay is not admissable in court!
when i was growing up and going to church, it was conveniently left out that the entire bible is hearsay! i was shocked to learn that not one person who ever saw jesus, wrote anything!
thats right, the words of the deciples were not written by them. the bible wasnt written until 80 to 300 years after jesus death. scholars still speculate who actually put a pen to the words, but all agree it was not those who alledgedly spoke them. the stories were handed down by believers by word of mouth.
now there is historical evidence of jesus trial, handed down from the romans. however, the people who were actually involved in the entire matter (jews), deny it.
i was not aware of this until i read "the age of reason" by thomas payne, when i was in college. i felt that surely he must be mistaken. how could people let a document of hearsay run their lives. i found that many people that can quote directly from the bible and were very astute individuals, didnt even know this. their pastors dont tell them!
since then, i was able to confirm this info many times. even the "history channel" had a program "who really wrote the bible".

Stu - you asked why. I gave you one possible answer, from one case of Biblical suffering. Thanks for the polite reply.

Milu - The Greek "parthenos" is "a woman who has never had sex with a man." The point I failed to make was that in case you mistranslate parthenos, there are other descriptions. You don't have to agree, and you certainly don't have to find it unique, but the translation "virgin" is not the problem.

Werewulf - you're largely right, hearsay is not admissible in court, and Jesus himself never wrote a single letter. However, if you apply that standard to any historical figure, you've just lost virtually all of history. For a full discussion, check out John McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." For a summary, try
[http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186703&perpage=20&pagen umber=8here



Dan

you are right about history and hearsay! sure we write about history today, based on investigations, some valid and some not. but the difference is that you hear people make exact quotes from the bible everyday. how accurate could these statements alledged to be spoken by jesus be, if they were handed down as folklore for hundreds of years before they were written down.
we cant even agree on things that happened in our own lifetimes and they were written at the time of occurance. just think if our forefathers had not kept historical records of the early days of this country and we relied on recollection of the politicians decendants. how accurate would the constitution be?
one of the best sources of statements made by people like thomas jeffereson, was "harpers weekly" magazine, as they actually interviewed him. one of his statements that stuck in my mind, was when jefferson was asked if he believed in the bible. he stated that "if the bible is in fact the word of god, then it is a noble document".
history is perverted in our public schools for political agenda. something that sticks in my mind, was when i visited moscow years ago. i hired an interpreter who was a college graduate. when i visited some WWII memorials, she was not aware that the united states was really involved to any degree in the war. dont think for a moment we arent subjected to propaganda here too.

I disagree.
The point of my post was translation error.
The example I gave was the difference between virgin and maiden and the obvious repercussion. Parthenos is, I would suggest, a red herring. Look at the original Aramaic which is the source of the Greek translation. Or are you of the school which believes the Greek came first?

I am, in fact, of the belief that the NT was written in Greek. In fact, I would hold with the majority of conservative scholars that we have some manuscripts that even predate the fall of Jerusalem in 65AD, written in Greek. The Greek text that I keep on my desk is (for all intents) identical to the early Greek mss. It's tough to do much better with ancient documents, imho.

As to a Greek translation from Aramaic ... there are a couple of translations of the OT floating around -- the Septuagint was an early latin translation of the OT, and the Masoretic texts are an early Greek translation (~150BC, give or take). Either way, both of those started with the Hebrew OT. Only a few snippets of the OT are done in Aramaic. In fact, little enough of the OT was done in Aramaic that most Bible school students don't even bother learning it. For the limited amount of text they'll need to read, it just isn't worth it.

I must be confused. What am I missing?

Missing?
Probably nothing:)

The whole virgin birth debacle starts in the old testament with the original prohecy and the mistranslation between "almah", "young woman" not virgin. and "bethulah", meaning "virgin" which probably gives Hebrew scholars a laugh when they look at some Christian texts. Virgin births? Vishnu, (sorry don't remember the goddess) and Isis in the Egyptian (yes I'm stretching a point there with virgin as it was self impregnation, using the ancient equivalent of the turkey baster;)).

As the language in use in the Palestine area was Aramaic, why would the original text be in Greek? Greek came into use with converts when the message was brought to gentiles, but Virgin births also formed part of the hellenistic tradition -hmmm when did it appear in christian belief? The earliest texts available, hard one as you say. There was a story about some relevant texts being found with the dead sea scrolls, (circa 1977) this seems to have been either totally false or covered up as I have not heard any more about it, perhaps in more scholarly circles? (The translation of the dead sea scrolls is also another can of worms which could be the subject of another documentary:D)

You are obviously a Christian and a much better biblical scholar than me, I hope I have not given offence as I am an agnostic and do not take religion very seriously, I do hope however, that I have offered a little food for thought.

Some good points, Milu. I'll check the prophecies from Isaiah -- would you believe I can also look up Hebrew words? :) Seriously, I'll check those tonight when I get home. Send me a PM if you really want me to remember.

The interesting question on virgin births (as with all other parallels between religions) is really hard -- who came up with the idea first? Jesus may not have been the first to occur, but was he the first to be foretold? It becomes the kind of question that is nearly impossible to asnwer, as the ancient history of civilizations that died thousands of years ago is a bit tough to trace. :( Did the Christian idea form out of an Egyptian story? Did the Egyptians take their story from Christian prophecy? Tough to tell, sadly.

Palestine has historically been a hotly disputed region. Because of arable farmland, tactical significance of both sea and land trade routes, and a variety of other reasons, various powers have owned the area on and off throughout the last 6000 years. Naturally, whichever power holds the land gets to declare the language. During the time the testaments were written, the land was occupied by the Romans. Pontius Pilate was the Roman official who oversaw that particular region, for example. Rome used Latin for official paperwork and message traffic, and Greek for all daily communications. Thus, anyone living in the region who wanted to tell a story, pass word about anything, etc., would have used Greek, as it was the lingua franca. The Jews, of course, would have also known Hebrew and likely some Aramaic (depending on which Jew you grabbed, of course -- the scribes would have been fluent, but the fishermen probably not so much). Being a guy who's rotten at language, I think it would have been miserable to live there -- Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic? Good heavens, that's too much! :D Either way, a great many manuscripts were written in Greek in that area during that time -- I find it no surprise that we find the gospel accounts written in Greek, on appropriate paper for the time period, with appropriate inks and the appropriate language nuances. I won't discount the theory that they were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, then translated -- but I will say that I haven't seen any conclusive evidence to support the idea.

The Qumran Scrolls are always fun to paint conspiracy theories about. Sadly, I could never find the particular flavor of koolaid that I wanted to drink on those. :) There's really not much of a coverup at all, and if you're really interested, you too can own the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The high profile part is the early copy of Isaiah, dating to about 150BC -- identical to every other copy we've ever seen. There's also a significant collection of early commentaries on scripture, which give insight to the early Jewish beliefs. While they aren't technically scriptural, it's valuable to know what the thoughts of the time were.

As to offense -- certainly none taken. :) I'm just having fun. This is what I do. You've asked some great questions, and raised some excellent points. I enjoy discussing this sort of thing with someone who has done enough study to make me think. :) Likewise, I hope I haven't come off too strong, or too rude, or too offensive -- like I said, I'm just having fun, and mean no disrespect. These beliefs are my own, and while I believe they are true, you believe that yours are true as well, and I won't doubt that you've put a lot of thought and research into what you believe.

Speaking of research -- WereWulf, any word on those Egyptologists? I'd still be curious to back that business up. TIA.

Cheers,

Dan

No. Zero tolerance.

Its time rational people, secular humanists and concerned individuals everywhere reclaimed the initiative from nutbag fundamentalist religous lunatics (of all persuasions) intent on holy war to hasten their own personal rapture.

May they all rot in their own particular hell, I say.

Have a nice day. :)

Stuart

I wanna meet the b1tch that f*&ked you up:)

And which of this elite group do you consider yourself a member pray tell?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/.../crucified.gif

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/dom.gif

Sister Assumpta?

lol, sounds plausible

Just another slack jawed bystander....


Say, what about that 964 you were gonna buy. When do you get it? :rolleyes:

Jan 31st. Watch out. None of this Golden Greek bizzo this time either.

You should talk - driven YOUR OWN 964 lately?

Not for some time. Gee the white one drives nicely tho, really tight car. Had a hoot thru the valley on Sunday. But- the engine bay light is stuck on, the indicators have stopped working, both rear speaker grills came loose and landed in the front seats (good brakes) and I still cant turn the radio on....

Sure does sound good tho with that exhaust.

Whoops got all on topic....

Stuart