How to scare the energy industry

BlueSkyJaunte · 01-10-2005, 02:28 PM

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1105319242587_49?hub=SciTech

30% efficiency?

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

Quote:

Sargent and other researchers combined specially-designed minute particles called quantum dots, three to four nanometres across, with a polymer to make a plastic that can detect energy in the infrared.

Isn't "infrared" just a frequency of heat radiation?

Looks like they can turn heat directly into electrical energy.

Can you imagine the applications, screw the sun we will all be going with coined sized nuke battery packs now.

This could be very big, or it could be "cold fusion" all over again.

Superman · 01-10-2005, 02:42 PM

Cool. Scaring an industry sounds like fun. I just wish electric power deregulation (adding profits to our power bills, and catering to industrial customers at the expense of residential customers) could be stopped. Right now, it's hiding because of the widespread awareness of the California scandal. But the ignorance and gullibility of voters is widely respected, and electric power deregulation will be back on the ballot.....before the fantasy of "what's good for business is good for citizens" is publicly rejected.

BlueSkyJaunte · 01-10-2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kach22i
Isn't "infrared" just a frequency of heat radiation?

Looks like they can turn heat directly into electrical energy. Can you imagine the applications, screw the sun we will all be going with coined sized nuke battery packs now.

This could be very big, or it could be "cold fusion" all over again.

My physics is oh-so-10-years-ago, but if I recall, heat = emission in the IR frequency range of the EM spectrum.

Nostatic can set us straight, I'm sure.

If this pans out the potential repercussions are staggering. This has "disruptive technology" written all over it...

BlueSkyJaunte · 01-10-2005, 02:47 PM

Yawn, trust Super to turn a discussion on an interesting new technology and a possible vehicle for sweeping social changes the likes of which haven't been seen since the discovery of petroleum into a rant against capitalism and Republicans....

Superman · 01-10-2005, 02:58 PM

Well, I didn't mean to bore you or hijack this thread. Sorry. It's just that when (not if) electric power "deregulation" happens, it will make industries like soft drinks look like lemonade stands. We are dependent on electric power, a commodity. It is almost like trying to pretend we're putting competition into the drinking water industry. That will be next, following electric power "deregulation" (profitization).

The invention seems cool. I have a hazy recollection of another invention...wait...it's coming.....that train that rides on magnets and goes something like 300 mph. It uses no more power than an ordinary home range. At least, that's what I thought I heard. If they can figure out how to operate it in a vacuum, the thing might go tens of thousands of miles per hour. Using the same amount of power. You first saw the concept on a Saturday morning. The Jetsons.

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman
You first saw the concept on a Saturday morning. The Jetsons.

My name is George..........and I own a hovercraft.

I really do, but it needs a little work now, had it ten years now. You are talking my language.

BlueSkyJaunte · 01-10-2005, 03:28 PM

Actually in the Heinlein short story "Let there Be Light" (found in the anthology The Man Who Sold the Moon) the main character develops a nearly 100% efficient, inexpensive photovoltaic cell and spends most of his time dodging assassins sent by the energy industry!

IIRC he finally releases the specs to his invention (anonymously) into the public domain.

cowtown · 01-10-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
Actually in the Heinlein short story "Let there Be Light" (found in the anthology The Man Who Sold the Moon) the main character develops a nearly 100% efficient, inexpensive photovoltaic cell and spends most of his time dodging assassins sent by the energy industry!

IIRC he finally releases the specs to his invention (anonymously) into the public domain.

Heinlein's got some great stories.

But notice how the article really got to the heart of the matter - "we can have SHIRTS that recharge our CELL PHONES!"

Oh, the problems we can solve when we put our heads together!

But seriously, that's astouding efficiency and I hope it holds up to be true, and is mass-produceable. Since the wackos have killed nuclear, we need at least one clean energy generation technology that is at least slightly feasible.

KevinG · KevinG's Garage

Looks like the perfect Xmas gift for our friends in Fairbanks.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

De-regulation isn't the problem. California did not have de-regulation. It was stupid-regulation

Superman · 01-13-2005, 08:31 AM

Nice try, Red-Beard, but "deregulation" is what everyone else called it. Another accurate term might be "free market." Still another term might be "charge whatever you can get the customer to pay." Or perhaps "sell the the highest bidder" or "pretend there is a shortage, create rolling blackouts to illustrate the lie, and gouge everyone."

jgbnm · 01-13-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman

The invention seems cool. I have a hazy recollection of another invention...wait...it's coming.....that train that rides on magnets and goes something like 300 mph. It uses no more power than an ordinary home range. At least, that's what I thought I heard. If they can figure out how to operate it in a vacuum, the thing might go tens of thousands of miles per hour. Using the same amount of power. You first saw the concept on a Saturday morning. The Jetsons.

Maglev - magnetically levitating train. It works and several large scale tests have been done. I believe there is at least one in operation (china?) and several in Japan coming on-line soon and another in Germany. Many others planned.

The superspeed maglev system has no wheels, axles, transmissions, or pantographs. It doesn't roll, it hovers. Instead of wheels and rails, the train uses non-contact electromagnetic levitation, guidance, and propulsion systems -wear-free electronics instead of mechanical components. Speeds of 300 - 500 km/hr and more are readily achievable. Energy consumption is lower than other forms of transportation (but more than a home range).

Next step - apply superconducting technology.

PS A vacuum would surely help, but not very practical...

M.D. Holloway · 01-13-2005, 09:39 PM

This technology is not new - saw it years ago in a paper presented at the ANTEC conf. in New Orleans. Materials that absorb then convert energy staes has been around for a while the thing with these materials is 1) stability (they tend to loose their functionality in a short time) 2) they are a bear to manufacturer 3) Th raw material costs are prohibitive. Many materials that have curious properties actually find interesting applications Teflon is a great example.

DanTheCat · 01-13-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman
Nice try, Red-Beard, but "deregulation" is what everyone else called it. Another accurate term might be "free market." Still another term might be "charge whatever you can get the customer to pay." Or perhaps "sell the the highest bidder" or "pretend there is a shortage, create rolling blackouts to illustrate the lie, and gouge everyone."

If you had been paying attention, you would know that the problems in California were caused by a lack of supply. And not just the questionable maintenance practices by some of the larger generation providers. The minimal buffer capacity was what allowed the gaming in the first place. Primarily due to environmental regulations (i.e. no building new powerplants), California didn't have the capacity to initiate a free market on power. For reasons beyond my knowledge, they went ahead and did it anyway, and of course it failed. (plenty of conspiracy theories to go around, take your pick) With proper infrastructure, a free energy market is perfectly acceptable.

Anyway, better start warming up to the idea, the pacific northwest is on the prowl. BPA is the sticky wicket, from what I have heard, so no timeframe yet.

Do you have some specific objection to the free-market energy concept, or do you just like government regulation?

Dan

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Superman
Nice try, Red-Beard, but "deregulation" is what everyone else called it. Another accurate term might be "free market." Still another term might be "charge whatever you can get the customer to pay." Or perhaps "sell the the highest bidder" or "pretend there is a shortage, create rolling blackouts to illustrate the lie, and gouge everyone."

How would you call a law which forces a utility to not sign long term contracts on the purchase of energy, but fixes the price that the energy can be sold? Is this de-regulation or regulation?

I Personally call that REGULATION. And a stupid one at that. In NY, we had deregulation. You are charged a fixed price for transportation and then floating charge for energy.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by DanTheCat
If you had been paying attention, you would know that the problems in California were caused by a lack of supply.

Dan

California, in it's regulations, makes it very difficult to install power generation equipment. So, it imports power from other states. During the energy crisis, the normal sources of power for Cali were out of commision (A nuclear plant for maintenance and Northwest Hydro from drought).

In 1999/2000 I _Personally_ was involved in the sale of 600 MW (just about the amount that California was short) to a producer in California. When time came to install the units, some local official was opposed to the installation and halted it (There 'might' have been an Indian Burial ground there - later proven false). The equipment sat in a parking lot in South Carolina while California went through blackouts.

GE met _directly_ with Davis. My boss met personally with Davis. When it was shown that we had 4 units ready to ship and we just needed help in getting through some additional (and unwarrented) red tape, Davis said, no, he wouldn't help. Davis thought he gained more with the crisis than by fixing it.

And he was right. He was re-elected the following year.

Those 4 units are now installed and beginning to produce power near Escondido, just north of San Diego.

Wrecked944 · 01-14-2005, 08:09 AM

Would I be hijacking the thread if I asked a question about geothermal energy? I saw an industry website somewhere (long forgotten) that painted a pretty shockingly rosy picture of the technology. Not sure I believe it. So does anybody know about this technology? Is it "ready for primetime"?

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

I a word...no.

There are limited places where it can work and those places are also extremely unstable.

Superman · 01-14-2005, 08:36 AM

Interesting. I had heard that some energy corporations shut down generating plants for the purpose of reducing supply.

I have been in the public works industry for fifteen years, and I have asked many people in the electric power industry over many years to steer me in the direction of any materials that might explain to me how electric power deregulation might be in the consumer's best interest. Some of you guys seem to be plugged in (pun intended), so my question now goes to you. If I get something, it will be the first thing I have ever received.

Here in Washington State, we have substantial power generation facilities. I think Grant County PUD is something like the second largest non-federal power generating organization in the country, for example. And of course we have Grand Coulee Dam here. FWIW, I stood in a room there with six 60-foot generators and asked "how much electricity is this 800 mw that each of these generators produces?" The Siemens guy said one can power a city like Seattle or Portland. To power a city like Los Angeles would take two. Again, there are six in that room and Grand Coulee has at least one other powerhouse.

Here is the deal. For the most part, the we taxpayers have built these facilities. We're certainly not going to be erecting any more dams in the future. There's even talk of breaching some. Anyway, we built them and we own them still. And we built the transmission systems that move this power across large distances. And once transported, in many cases we also built the distribution systems that provide this power to peoples' homes. So, if I own the dam, the transmission lines, the distribution lines, the transformers, etc.....why would I want to sell this power to someone so they can add profits and sell it back to me?

And here's another consideration. In Washington State we also have some aluminum plants. They use a COLLOSAL amount of power, and we have good, relatively cheap hydro power. When (notice I did not say "if") electric power is deregulated (sold to private companies to resell to me and to industrial concerns) what do you think those private companies are going to do? I mean, whatever private company winds up landing the "Alcoa" or "Reynolds" accounts is going to make a lot of money. There will be intense competition for those accounts. So, there will be a price war and those companies (Alcoa and Reynolds) will become the beneficiary of "deregulation." So, if someone cuts these companies a super deal, and if profits now need to be added to the overall price structure, what is going to happen to my residential power bill?