How many californian's are fed up with this pant load from Arnie
 

SmileWavy

Every polician needs an individual or group to be the scapegoat. It takes the focus off the real issues.

Education is the last unreformed place in America. Talk to anyone in any other walk of life and how things have changed over the past 25 years. Does anyone do their job the same way they did just a few years ago. Times, they are a-changing fellows...

My $0.02 - pay teachers more. But bring benifits down to the same level as equally paid white collar professionals. I mean really, who gets 50% of their paycheck and full benifits for life after retirement? No wonder starting salaries are so low..

mikester, agree totally. I taught 7-8 for three years and everything you say is the way it is.

Arnold: the white knight who will turn into an ugly frog. Hopefully before Sen Hatch tries to get an amendment to let Arnold run for President.

As the husband of a teacher, I couldn't agree more. My wife was a remedial reading teacher and couldn't make any progress with some of the students because their parents would not reinforce her classroom work at home.

I'm not a big fan of throwing unlimited funds at education either, but maybe it would be best to kill most of the special programs and put the money back into the basic classroom?

The way I see it, when a student is doing poorly, it is a teacher's fault maybe 1/3 of the time. The other 2/3 of the time, it is the parents' fault.

Hum yes starting salaries are low and so are ending saleries. I would be making less than half if I had stayed a teacher. So 1/2/ of 1/2 is 1/4 and that is darn poor.
Starting salaries are poor, because that is what society is willing to pay and what teachers are willing to accept. Usually because the teacher is the second wage earner.

Everyone accepts that teachers do this more for the love of teaching than for the money. I remember Jerry Brown saying how I was being paid well becasue of the psychic dollars I was getting as a teacher. You know I just couldn't pay my taxes in psychic dollars.

I don't see how you can pin this on Arnold. My wife is a teacher (college prof) and I have done contracting with the CA state dept. of education in the finance area.

My view is that it's not the teachers, but the laberynthine funding model and totally incomprehensible "accountability measures" like No Child Left Behind that are keeping anything from changing. Oh, and the teacher's unions.

Categorical funding - state revenues get divied up into a bunch of categorical programs, some big, some small. Some are for things like "Special Education Programs," which most, if not all, see the benefit of. Others are for things like "promotion of understanding of the Floridian White Owl in K-8 economically depressed schools," which is a waste of money, pure and simple. Arnold is trying to consolidate a bunch of these programs into large pots of money that can be allocated at the superintendent (district) level. Good idea, no? I think it is. The unions don't. It might disrupt the balance of power. Education lobbyists would lose out big time.

Accountability - No Child Left Behind funding is determined on a district level, based on the district's previous-year performance. This is a national (not state) program. Does this make sense? How do schools improve over one year? They don't. There are fluctuations as cohorts of kids move through the system, and schools are rewarded/penalized because of it. This should be changed, but it's not Arnold's program.

Per-pupil funding - over $10,000 per child, per year. Is more money the answer? (EDIT - took out incorrect ranking information).

Bureaucracy - The state superintendent of education (Jack O'Connell) is an elected officer, which makes the Dept. Of Ed a non-consititional office (meaning that the Gov. can't just impose his will on it). BUT, the State school board, to which the supe reports, is appointed by...the Governor. Does this make sense? Infighting is the biggest output here.

Unions - Anytime you even think about trying to fire an incompetent teacher, the union will sue. This is a blanket policy without regard to the merits of the individual case. It's just standard operating procedure, because precedent is everything in these actions. Does this make sense?

The system's screwed up, no doubt about it. But I don't think you can lay it all at Arnold's feet. These are complicated problems, and I was only involved in the money side of things.

The scapegoat excuse doesn't work. Why would the Gov scapegoat the most powerful organized labor union in the state, knowing full well that he has no direct control over the school system? My view is that he really does want to make changes, but he is becoming mired in the system and flailing around. Good intentions, unmanageable state.

Sorry this is long and not spellchecked.

I recall that California is near the bottom in expenditure. I'll have to go dig that information up.

We are not blaming Arnold for any of this. But he is using the teachers as a scapegoat, and that is what is wrong. He billed himself as the fixer, but he is more like the villifier. Point at the teachers, and say that they are the problem. Disgusting.

Arnie in going after the Teachers is really going after the Union...

Teachers in themselves are not to blame...a teacher has to fight the parents and the school administration/bureaucracy....after awhile even the best teachers burn out and just start collecting their paychecks...

I agree, it has become too personal (both toward the teachers and toward the Governor. The Legislature, well, it's open season on them for a good reason :D). Like tabs says, the Gov. is going after the union, not the teachers personally.

The union affords a lot of protections to teachers, and I don't want to get into a debate about whether unionization is good or bad here. But the unions, in holding this power, also oppose any changes to the system that many (most) would see as progress. Their first priority, by definition, is not the kids, it's protecting their constituents.

Load of Bull # 1

"teachers are teaching more students"

Fact, it is shrinking and has been for decades

Number of students per teacher in public schools, 1955-2001


1955
26.9

1960
25.8

1965
24.7

1970
22.3

1971
22.3

1972
21.7

1973
21.3

1974
20.8

1975
20.4

1976
20.2

1977
19.7

1978
19.3

1979
19.1

1980
18.7

1981
18.8

1982
18.6

1983
18.4

1984
18.1

1985
17.9

1986
17.7

1987
17.6

1988
17.3

1989
17.2

1990
17.2

1991
17.3

1992
17.4

1993
17.4

1994
17.3

1995
17.3

1996
17.1

1997
16.8

1998
16.4

1999
16.1

2000
16.0

2001
15.1

Here's California.

California
1994 24.0
1995 24.0
1996 22.9
1997 21.6
1998 21.0
1999 21.0

That's exactly right.

Average daily teacher workload
1971 - 134 students taught per day (public secondary schools)



1996 - 97 students taught per day (public secondary schools)



National Education Association (1/29/03)

The "average" california teacher makes about $55k per year and they start around $35k per year.

Not huge money I agree but it's more than I make:)

SP: You are making pretty good money - and your talents and work have got you there. Compare teachers to lets say someone working in an insurance company office. The pay scales are comparable - and the benifits (including retirement) are not..

As for starting salaries, I dated a new NYC teacher, and she was brought in at low pay. Lower than reasonable. According to her this is - the union is controlled by the older teachers and that who who they look out for. The city cannot pay the retirement packages, healthcare bills AND pay decent starting salaries. (Not to mention pay differentials between physics and gym teachers..) The younger teachers realize change is coming, and they resent the older ones..

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship?

Supe:

Add this into the mix: Throwing more money at a problem without determining the root cause of the problem is folly.

Ask why charter schools and some private schools, with much lower per capita expenditures, have higher GPS and graduation rates.

Of course, the "public school system" must provide opportunities for the learning disabled and other disadvantaged groups, but even when these are taken out of the mix, one fact emerges: Kids attend charter and private schools because, in the main, the parents of these kids are most likely to be involved in the education process. My kids went, at my expense, to a private school. When they went off to college, they were amazed to find that the first year was quite easy since most of the subject matter had been covered in highschool!!

The key is not how much money is spent per student, but how effectively this money is spent.

Another point that should be brought up....

On top of the salaries teachers get a benefit package that would make a Teamster blush.

len, you don't live in CA, and I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but they don't match up with my local schools. So your point is that we should make classes bigger like they used to be so education will get better?

if you want to lay blame, there is plenty to go around, but look at the PARENTS. THe people of breeding age right now are smack in the middle of the "not my responsibility" era. And in fact are parents that send their kids to private schools part of the problem?

Len what school in CA only had 21 students per class....in the schools I subed in it was over 30 per class....

Sorry but those are the facts from The US DOE, what can I tell ya.

And no I'm not saying make the classes bigger, I'm saying quit lying about facts. Don't say one thing when the facts are the exact opposite. Is that wrong on my part?

Give me your county and I'll try to get you the stats.

My numbers were students per teacher, not class size. Class size has remained virtually stagnant for 35 years at a national average of about 27.

Here's the actual California data by district. Shockingly low huh.

Edit: And I will just bet MUCH lower than you had been led to believe, yes?






http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1109794117.jpg

so they are counting aides (who have limited training) as teachers to get those numbers. They are tyring to make the numbers look good, but the reality in the classroom is that they are simply dumping bodies in there as window dressing. Yes, some of them are good, but lots are not.

Len, you know the devil is in the details. Your number "lie" as much as the other ones. Sure, you can cite a source, but what the numbers actually mean (ie, context) is the real crux.

Where did I say they counted aides? What gave you that idea? Not saying you're wrong, just curious where you got that.

That's why I posted the chart above. Actual class sizes.

Facts are a b1tch sometimes, I know.

BTW,

I never said it was their fault, I'm just sayng it isn't a crutch either. The average teacher has a MUCH easier schedule than they did say 20 years ago. In fact they teach about 30% fewer kids per day each.

YHou're still looking at averages for a school and not the actual numbers. Nit picking I know but that's the truth as I see it.

My opinion is anything more than 20 students in middle school and above is too many. This isn't a crutch any more than Arnie going after them as a scapegoat.

agreed

How so? They still pay their taxes to the PS system.

One (actually, more than one) of my sisters is a teacher. She teaches special education students (and behavioral troublemakers who cannot be allowed to attend regular classes) of Jr High age. Her fiance is an aide. The fiance has two students that he attends, one at a time, each for a half-day. If he's included in Len's figures, then this would understate the ratio. And yes, there are more of these folks now than before. That is, when I was a punk (and I sure was), nobody followed a single student around all day....there was not the staff.

Parents have a FAR greater impact on students than teachers, and many parents are asleep at the wheel or worse. One of the severely disadvantages kids the fiance' attends is a little girl with many many health issues including SEVERE asthma. I was recently privy to a conversation between the fiance', the sister and another teacher regarding whether Child Protective Services should be contacted. The reason? This child who struggles mightily with severe asthma.....comes to school smelling like a full ash tray. Her parents are nearly impossible to reach, and will not attend a meeting.

And my other sisters, who do not necessarily deal with special ed kids, report the same thing. Some of the kids have parents who do not give a ****. And the kid knows that.

BTW, dealing with severely handicapped (liek autistic, etc) kids is one of the happiest and most rewarding experiences a human can have. Families who are burdened by these children.......are some of the happiest and luckiest families I have ever met.

Arnold is a dickhead.

Hey Len your on the Titanic on this one!

Arnie has just found a roundabout way to get at the Teachers Union thats all...I imagine he wants to break it's stranglehold on education like Reagan broke the Air Traffic Controlers Union...

The problem is money is thrown at a problem to fix it...and what does any Bureaucracy do with money...build denser Bureacracies...there are more Secrataries and staff than ever before...and teachers are MADE to comply with every whim that the CA Board of Education has concerning the proper way to educate children...let alone the local Boards and Administration putting pressure on them to comply...with failing programs...Then teachers have to deal with parents who drop off Johnny or Susie at what they consider to be day care....and even the best parents have abdicated responsibilty for educating their children to the school district...thinking their kids will be educated...well my kid did his/her homework why can't she read....And the poor teacher is caught in the middle of a NO WIN SITUATION....in which if they stay sooner or later just stop trying to fight the system and start collecting their paychecks..

I'm waiting for the day when the Teachers Pension fund gets absorbed into the CA General Fund...

I just feel like he's pandering to his popularity.

I find most teachers to be educated idiots...sure they got the paper on the wall thats says they're smart/ educated.... but it must be all those years of being educated that has made them think that they know it all...and your stupid....but mostly they just bump their heads against the wall like a rat in a maze on crack...

Let's blame the gubmint.

Wow. Here I remove Superman (albeit temporarily) from my ignore list because I'm really interested in this subject (politics in education) and see that he has indeed grown. He has gotten rid of the beercan/NASCAR/redneck allusions and just boiled it right down to the point. Yes sir. Such intellect.

Let's not forget to blame all these educated Educators who are enlightened in the way to educate children...and try to push their ideas down everyones throat using the latest statistics and studies to show why they are right and everybody else is wrong...Oh and we must not chastise a child for we might harm his self esteem...

BTW: I'm talking about the CA Board of ED and not Teachers

While I scanned through all your posts, I am going to add my 2 cents. My mother is a teacher and has been teaching in California for 22 years from Watts (LA Unified) to now Bellflower where she is teaching the kids that no one else wants to teach and she is helping them catch up and graduate high school with all the normal kids. The problem in my eyes is the unions. The union and the administration is a load of crap. They were given a raise 2 years ago by the state of CA but the school district decided to spend the money elsewhere and screwed the teachers and the union doesn't fight this while she still has to pay union dues.

My mom starts work at 7am in the morning leaving the house at 5am and doesn't return until after 9pm several day a week devoting her time to helping kids and making a difference. Arnold in my opinion is doing the right thing by getting after the unions and the bureaucracy. And from my mother's perspective, as I have spoken to her several times on this issue is that the some of the teachers don't do a good job and really make it bad for the whole group and the state/DOE should weed out the people that don't belong in the profession.