Any Private Pilots?
 

Considering taking flight school to get my Private Pilot's certificate. Anyone on the board with any experience in this area? Took an introductory lesson last week and it was pretty cool.

I had a room-mate go through that process, and more recently a friend finished his instructor school. It's a lot of fun, but a pretty expensive hobby. But then, if you're into Porsches, you're already ok with expensive hobbies, right? :)

Seriously, until you get qualified to fly alone, you're paying for plane rental, gas, and instructor time for every single flight. Then you're only paying for plane rental and gas -- still painful, imho. The basic license, of course, is just for single-engine simple-landing-gear daylight-navigation (VFR) flying. No instruments, no fast planes, nothing funky. Getting that basic license is really just a license to get the other add-ons. :)

There's at least one professional pilot on the board, and a few others that have direct personal experience. I'm sure they'll chime in.

Dan

Roger.

There are few addictions more pure and satisfying than aviation. As you have discovered, once you have the bug, there's no going back.

What did you do, just a lap or two around the pattern?

Not as much fun as driving a Porsche fast, but still a kick in the a$$. I have over 20,000 hours in the air--happy to answere any questions. John Legate

I did watched a DVD for about 35 minutes, and then we went up for about 50 minutes in a Cessna 152. I flew the plane for just a few minutes. It was pretty fun.

The majority of the cost to go through school is for the plane rental. I'm looking at going in with a friend of mine with the same interest on a 150/152 trainer. Makes sense to put that money towards a purchase instead of rental fees.

I'm going through my flight training right now. I have about 17 hours down here at John Wayne and am a lesson or two away from my first solo. Its a helluva good time, but can be frustrating and its not cheap. I've learned that having the right instructor is the key to success and happiness.

Richard -

Did you have a bad experience with an instructor and have to change? Honestly, I wasn't thrilled with the guy that I went up with, and if I end up going with that school, probably won't use him.

I have a whopping total of 1.4 hours logged in an F/A-18D, with a little more than half that time having control of the stick. I can personally guarantee that the 45 minutes I spent "punching holes in the sky" was much more fun than ANYTHING I have done in my 911. :D

Aileron Rolls, Max Climbs, Turfing Clouds...my heart beats faster just thinking about it!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1113412199.jpg

Randy

One thing that anyone wanting to get their license might think of doing is to dedicate a few weeks to getting some training in a school.

I trained for a while at a small flight school and found that doing an hours flight a week was just not going to work. Was forgetting half of what I learned and needed to either fly more each week or stop. Ended up stopping for a few years (after solo) and taking it back up later when time permitted. That was 32 years ago and have been flying for a living the last 26 years.

What I am trying to say is that you might think of finding a school, spending a week or two at a facility and do nothing but fly. There are many good schools around in Cali, Arizona and Florida to look at. Also, flying out of a large airport, you tend to spend a lot of time waiting for other aircraft, which gains you no experience and wastes money.

Find a small airport and go there for more quality flight time and less time spent "holding short" for take off clearance. The other important thing is finding a place to fly where you are not kept on the ground by weather, and the above places usually are clear most of the year.

Regarding the instructor. If you do not get along with him/her, get someone else! Another problem these days is that most instructors are moving up in the food chain and some students end up having several before they are signed off for their checkride. Another reason to go to a dedicated school and take a few weeks and do it all at once.

Joe A

PS if you guys want to fly in a REAL airplane, get with John Cramer or myself. We both fly old fabric covered taildraggers and that is REAL FLYING! I rarely go over 500 feet and enjoy seeing what is going on around me. John's airplane is made to fly upside down and he wrings it out from time to time I hear! :) Mine is over 50 years old and straight and level is just fine for me. Fly a fast jet for a living but enjoy my old taildragger on days off as its just for fun, and low and slow.

Mike, Joe is right... the right instructor is paramount to your success. Otherwise, flight training can be an extremely frustrating experience. I'm not sure where you'll be learning, but here at SNA, stuff is happening all around you when you're flying. The instructor must be able to communicate with you, not raise your frustration level and get you to absorb all the info he's saturating you with.

Yes, I believe the right instructor is paramount. Regarding where to learn, I've kicked that around a lot. My office is a stone's throw from the runway at a small airport here in town. (061) No tower. I have some friends that fly out of here, and a couple of them learned here and are too intimidated to fly to a "big" airport. I don't want that to happen to me. I'm considering Sac Executive since it's a bigger airport with a tower and some traffic, but no commercial airlines.

Richard - what type of plane are you learing in? High/low wing? 2/4 passenger?

If you decide to do it, go all out, do not spread it out over two years, get it done in 3-6 months. If you spread it out you will end up spending alot more money because a week or two break will cause you end up repeating training.

I used to instruct years ago, find somebody you get along with. You would probably be better off learning at smaller airport. If the engine is running you are paying for every minute, you don't need to be sitting there, number four, waiting to take off. Don't let the big airports intimidate you, the training will cover all that stuff after you get the basics down. I did my private airplane rating flying once or twice a week and it took nearly a year. When I started flying helicopters, I went to a dedicated professional school. Each has there pros and cons but I enjoyed both.
If you went on a Demo flight with an instructor and paid for 50 minutes, you should have at least got to fly the thing for more than a few minutes (unless that's all you wanted to fly for).
Have fun!!

http://www.learntofly.com/

Just a suggestion, it's a Cessna sponsored program, they certify the schools that conduct their curriculum. All the ground school is available on CD-Rom if your schedule doesn't work for classroom training. One plus, most of the schools are supposed to use new to newer Skyhawks, so you won't be flying crappy equipment. They also offer financing. It's the route I plan to take when I have the time, I had hoped for this summer but now it looks like I'll be taking a full load of summer school. It's always been a dream of mine, I've been flying in my grandfather's Bonanza as long as I can remember, plus I'm an Aerospace Engineering student, so it'll eventually help my career.

A little more on the Big Airport/small airport thing. If you are learning at a small field, and you are wanting to get more experience in complex airspace, say so! That's what you are paying your instructor for. Tell him you would like more training in the thick of it (once your flight time is appropriate). If he is unwilling, find someone else. That is, you don't need to dump your primary instructor, just ask for someone who is more comfortable in those situations.

Mike, something else to consider if you're considering purchasing a plane. I don't know what instruction + plane are around you, but here it's only $89 for a 172 + $30 for instructor. The maintenance costs for a plane make a Porsche look free, a magazine I recently read said to budget between 10-20k yearly for maintenance and repairs on a single, depending on what you buy, the hours you put on, etc. Of course, this is having a mechanic do it all, but there's a lot of stuff you can't do on a plane without an A&P license. Plane and Pilot has an article on buying a plane in this months issue, might be worth picking up.

I would really recommend learning at the busiest airport you can find. Yes, you will spend extra $$ idleing in line for clearance, but the experience is invaluable. After learning at SNA, I'll be able to fly anywhere, no problem... piece of cake!

Mike - I'm in a 2002 Cessna 172. My flight school is a little pricey - 172s are $128 per hour, but the equipment is top notch. No way in hell would I learn in a crappy, old 152.

I did this exact same thing and came out like a bandit! Bought a C-150 and two of us got our private licenses out of it. Flew it another 200 hours then traded up to a C-177 Cardinal. Flew it long enough to realize that it was time to quit my mega bux job and go back to school. Sold both airplanes for either a profit or no loss and flew them for years to boot.

Then spent two years in Douglas Arizona, right on the border with Mexico, getting my aircraft mechanics license and EMT/paramedic training. Came out of there and got a job 3 days later twisting wrenches on planes. Six months later got a job flying night cargo. One year later was flying copilot on a 4 engine Viscount hauling rock n roll stars around. 18 months afterwards jumped in the right seat of a Learjet and the rest is history...

One trick on paying for aircraft maintenance is to find an A&P who wants to fly. Partner the plane with him and trade him maintenance for flight time. He pays the fuel cost and works on the plane in exchange for using it.

There is nothing like getting paid (and very well I might add) to do something that you would do for free, and love to do day in and out as well. You tend to walk around with a smile on your face a lot more, kinda like I did today when I took the 911 for a spin!

Motion, not to disagree with you but you get a lot more money's worth flying at a small airport then heading to a larger one to get used to the traffic. Start out at a larger one to get used to it, then move to a small one where you fly all you want to, not waiting at the hold line or flying holding patterns waiting to get worked into the pattern. That costs money and you do not learn anything from it.

If any of you guys on the left coast want to get together let me know. We are doing trips to Carlsbad, San Jose and Vegas in the next month and can give a tour of the jet and talk flying for a while.

JoeA

bad idea... the cost of a 150 may look cheap... but to keep it working is BIG $$$

right now i am working on my multi...

i agree with flying out of a big airport.. you learn to deal with traffic...


right now i am attending ERAU www.erau.edu and the flying is great!

Own vs. Rent? Mwahahah!

Fellas, I don't make a trip to the men's room without running the numbers. So when I decided to buy my Citabria, I built a pretty detailed spreadsheet, that included things like cost of capital, escrow for engine overhaul, escrow for instrument overhaul, annuals, oil changes, fuel costs, insurance and hangar. And about 20 other variables that you wouldn't even think would enter into aircraft ownership.

The breakeven point, expressed in hours, between owning my Citabria and renting a similar one (a 7ECA) was about 100 hours per year.

Which, if you and a buddy are getting your tickets, and live in an area like the desert southwest where there are hundreds of VFR days per year, is entirely reasonable.

Unfortunately, reality reared it's ugly head: I'm embarrassed to say how many actual hours I put on the Citabria last year, but it was nowhere NEAR 100. Which means that economically, it's cheaper to rent.

Now, who can put a value on knowing that YOU were the last one to fly the airplane? That was pretty important to me, especially when you consider that it's an aerobatic airplane-- you do NOT want the guy before you pulling 9g when he botches a snaproll, and then not mentioning it. My Citabria has metal wings, new spars, new covering, etc., and most rentals tend to be pretty well-used. So that's a factor.

All in all, I'm not saying don't buy an airplane, but I am saying, make a very realistic assessment of your hourly usage, then cut that number in half and run it through your model. If it works out, great!

And wait just a damned minute, how dare you fellas bust on the C150? It's the PERFECT training airplane. . . particularly if it has a turquoise/brown paint scheme, manual flaps, and smells like a mix of engine oil and vomit. Now THAT's renting!

Also, you don't need no fancy GPS. Pilots today are encouraged to learn situational awareness by looking at pictures on a box. Not good: someday that fancy box is going to take a dump, and you'll be DEAD. Learn it the old-fashioned way, by looking out the window with a sectional chart. I'm not talking about dead reckoning, with a chart, a compass and your watch. Just your eyes and the chart. Once you've mastered the "OK, there's a lake that looks like a goat's head, and here's a lake that looks like a goat's head on my chart" THEN you're ready for "OK, I've been flying for 1 hour on a magnetic heading of 090 and I estimate the wind correction angle using my E6B to be seven degrees and therefore I'm somewhere near Goat's Head Lake." Then ADF. Then VOR. Then, and only then, should your hand reach for the power switch on the magic box.

And keeping your eyes out of the cockpit, particularly if you are learning to fly in California, is a GREAT idea for traffic avoidance. As my Grandfather (Private, 1952, Instrument Instructor, Boeing Airplane Co. -1982) was fond of saying, "Better a stiff neck than a broken one."

This was a fun thread. . . .http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185721&highlight=citabr ia

John, any pics of the Citabria? I like seeing other's planes almost as much as their Porsches. The article in Plane and Pilot this month agrees with what you said, if you don't put on many hours, purchasing a plane doesn't make financial sense. Of course, neither do Porsches. I know one thing, if I had a chance at my grandfather's Bonanza I would do whatever I could to get it, I love that plane.

Matt - I have a buddy with an A35. I have around 100 hours flying right seat with him in the last few years. What a great plane!

John,

Totally agree and so many of "todays" pilots want all the bells and whistles in their airplane. The one I fly every day is one of the most advanced corporate jets in the world. Flies almost 10 hours non-stop, equipped with satellite everything and will land itself if needed.

I used to fly for the manufacturer (Boeing and McDonnell as well) of this plane and was a checkairman. Loved to turn off all the fancy glass tubes up front and have the other pilot tell me where they were and what was going on with the airplane. The vast majority of them cannot do it.

Its called "pilotage" and the meaning of it is simple. You need to throw all the fancy stuff out the window and be able to figure out where you are, where you need to go and get there, safely and legally. Look at the ground, open a map and from the railroad, river or highway figure out where you are. Watertowers make it easy as they almost always have the towns name on the side. Now try this at night or after its snowed??!! Not so easy and there may come a time when the electricty stops and you do not have GPS or the moving map displays.

An old dirtbag C-150, Piper Cub or Aeronca is one of the best airplanes to learn to fly in, bar none! Its back to basics and when you can land one like this in a crosswind and taxi into the FBO, not one person will ask for your pilots license... they know you know how to fly.

John's plane is a Aeronca on steroids, with inverted oil and fuel systems and its just the same as the three above, just a bit stronger in the areas you want when doing aerobatics. Go out and fly with one of these and learn to FLY, then after you have mastered this you can get in a plane with all the radios and nav systems.

Just my 2c worth but I have been doing it for a while...

JoeA

Private here. Used to have half of a Bonanza, but for now its back to renting Cessnas. Usually an old orange 150 if it's just me.

<<And wait just a damned minute, how dare you fellas bust on the C150? It's the PERFECT training airplane. . . >>

I got my private in a C152. The day i got back to the field, was the day I got checked out in a C172. After that I vowed never to get into a 152 again!
I have since bought a twin, built my time and now fly for the airlines.

Funny thing is, I really dont miss GA flying that much. There is alot to be said for flying nice, new, state-of-the-art equipment. Especially in all this crappy weather weve had lately.

Very nice!

Found a couple different plane owners today that would consider a partnership. One guy, a Piper Tomahawk (I'm aware of it's reputation) wants $8k for a 1/4 share. Less than 50 SMOH. 2nd guy has a Cessna 172, with only 230 SMOH. Has one partner, looking for two more for a $15k share each. Both have their +/-'s.

Any comments?

Thanks...

I own a 1955 restored (multiple award winning) Piper Pacer, a MiniMax ultralight and am building an aerobatic DR107. My first plane was a Grumman Yankee that I purchased just after getting my ticket. I have a small grass runway at home and a part time business doing annual inspections and some custom build and restoration (I got my AP 5 yrs ago and my IA 1 1/2 yrs ago). I have had my private for 11 yrs (I have about 600 hours now). I learned in a ratty Cessna 150. I got my ticket in 45 hrs (under 6 mnths) for about $2500 total.

What is your final goal in aviation? If you just want to fly out for a hundred dollar hamburger once in awhile for fun then you might as well just rent. If you want to do things like going to Oshkosh and local fly-in type outings, you may want to look at buying something other than a Cherokee 140 or Cessna 150/172. I myself enjoy going to fly-ins where one will typically see lots of really nice classic planes that have been lovingly restored.

Most small (2-4 seat) general aviation airplanes are all going to be in the 100-130 mph speed range. New Cessna 172's (150K ?) are not really any different than the average mid 70's 172 performance wise.

You will not see anyone at a fly-in scrambling to look at some guys "new" 172, yet the guy that pulls up in a nicely restored Champ, Cub, Cessna 120/140/170, Stinson, etc etc will have many folks drooling over it. Short of buying a new Cessna, just be sure to check the logbooks of anything you look at buying.

IMO there is no reason to take lessons at a controlled airport. You will be taught the basics of air traffic control as part of your private pilot training anyways. I learned at a small airport and on occasion use ATC for radar advisories and on occasion I need to land at controlled fields, I have no problems. Most "fun flying" does not involve large controlled airports anyways.

You are wasting your money if you rent anything other than Cessna 150 type aircraft for basic flight training. After getting your private ticket, transitioning to other make/model small aircraft is a piece of cake.
All small general aviation planes are required to have annual inspections and planes that are rented out are required to have 100 hr inspections on top of that.

I could go on and on.

If you want to talk further you could give me a buzz sometime.

Mike,

If you could hack the price difference feel that you would do better with the Cessna. Have flown a Tomahawk and its boring to say the least. Only thing going for it is that the visability is good, but its frigging ugly and most everyone feels that way about it. That said, it would be cheap flight time.

The C-172 is a well known airplane, holds its value very well and you can take 3 people and lots of gas (as long as their nickname is not gordo or bubba) and would do a lot of trips that the Piper would not. Most people fly 100-200 hours a year so 230 SMOH engine means that you could fly it for at least 10 years with no major maintenance to the engine, which is a plus.

The major question is: which one do you like? While the Piper may be butt ugly, some people like them and in the end its up to you. I like this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1113486983.jpg

JoeA

Joe, nice! That looks like a LOT of fun! Is that a little venturi tube?

For learning to fly, there's nothing wrong with a spam-can. They are very docile handling, very stable, nice side-by-side panel, basic IFR instruments for learning unusual attitude recovery (don't want to do a JFK). Once you get your license you can take a couple friends along for a hundred-dollar cheeseburger.

I got my private in N714KX, a 1977 C150 with such niceties as electric flaps with a pre-selector switch: you don't have to hold the switch down to raise or lower. If I had it to do all over again, I'd learn in a Cub.

When I got my tailwheel checkout, I had to un-learn a lot of bad habits, mostly related to directional control and use of the rudders. There is no question that learning to fly in a conventional geared airplane forces you to develop a keen sense of which way the airplane is flying vs. which way it's pointing, and make the two match when the wheels are near the ground.

Unfortunately in today's world of GPS and Mode S, you practially need to have an electrical system in the airplane to fly. So a basic electrical system, consisting of a GPS/Comm, a transponder, and an electric horizon, would be on my short list. If you were going to have a gyro instrument in the panel, might as well spend the extra money and get pitch information-- considering that 50% of fatal accidents are caused by VFR pilots proceeding into IMC, that just might save your bacon someday.

Here's a different suggestion, how about renting to get your license and building a kit plane in the meantime?
http://www.lancair-kits.com/
Lancair is just one of many, but I just think they have some of the most beautiful modern singles out there. Awesome performance numbers too. Their kits start at about what a 1960 182 costs. Their kits are in more major components than many, as the major structure of the plane is composite. I haven't ever flown one, and am not yet a pilot, this is just my un-informed opinion, but I'd sure love to build one. Not positive, but doesn't the FAA allow you to get a maintenance certificate for a homebuilt, that allows you to do much of the work on it?

John,

Yes its a venturi tube. No electrics at all on the bird and I use a handheld radio to get in and out of the airports. Have to hand prop the airplane.

I wanted a real airplane that you fly, not something with an autopilot and such. I can take the doors off and get a real view but you really have to trust the seat belts!

Matt,

For someone who is mechanical its an option but few people realize just how long it takes to build or restore an airplane. Have done three so far in my life and you can almost double or triple the time you estimate. That said, you know the bird better than anyone then. Yes, you are allowed to do a lot more maintenance on a homebuilt or experimental aircraft.

Joe

Joe, I've always heard on the old school kits it was about three years or so. I'm really curious how much a modern kit, like the Lancair, would take to build. It seems like they come in major component groups, and it's just a matter of attaching them together and adding the extra stuff like the engine, avionics, control lines, etc. The wings and fuselage are composite, so there's not any building to do there. Depending on the model, the kits start a little over 50k, not sure if that includes engine and avionics though. Regardless, I've seen them selling at over 200k, not a bad return on your time, and it looks like one hell of a lot of fun. What have you built in the past Joe?

Matt,

Depending on how much you want to spend for a 50% fast-build kit, it could be in the low thousands of hours, or in the high thousands of hours. That's if you've built a kit plane before.

I would never discourage anyone from doing it, though, but the time and dollar commitment is gigantic (compared to Porsches). The ES uses a Lycoming IO-540 which will run you about thirty grand and the prop's another eight or ten. The Legacy (a two-seater) uses an IO-360 (same motor as a Mooney or Piper Arrow) and will cost 20k/8K. By the time you add avionics and all the goodies you've got some significant dollars into the airplane, and probably about five years of building time if it's your first one and not your only job.

Now, for the first-time kitbuilder, there are tons of lower-priced, much faster to build kits out there. Wag-aero makes a couple, like the ol' Wag-a-bond. . .

http://www.wagaero.com/

They also make some nice updated cubs, including a clipwing version for aerobatics. Easy to build, you can learn all the basic fabrication techniques, and once you had a couple of completed aircraft behind you, then step up for the Columbia 400!

And if you want to fly water, how about the Searey? A friend of mine built one, took him about a year, but he learned about rag and tube construction, covered the wings himself, mounted the Rotax, rigged everything and test flew it himself! Fun stuff.

Joe,

So the starter is your left arm? Prime, set parking brake, left mag, CLEAR, swing?

In a lot of ways, flying is a similar hobby to Porsches, just the price increases exponentially. Expensive parts, regular maintenance, and one hell of a lot of fun. I haven't ever understood the incredible prices for aircraft parts, 30k for an engine, and most still use carbs?! I don't believe that there is that much more engineering or expense that goes into the building of them, I know there's the cost of FAA certification, but still. I wonder if it's just economics, price is dictated by what people are willing to pay.

Way lower numbers being built and paper trails and certification of darn near every component including raw material sometimes. Also the liability exposure is crazy.

In some ways it is very similar to Porsches. If you buy a $35,000 used Cessna 172 and a year later the engine goes south, you will pay 10-15k to have it overhauled yet your plane will not then be worth 45-50k. Unless you have an AP mechanic rating you cannot legally do any of it yourself. Basically certified aircraft ownership is real tough for someone with limited funds. That said, it is a great hobby.

As far as homebuilts, they range from simple single seaters with a vw or snowmobile engine, to sophisticated high performance aircraft that many would argue are highly advanced compared to most current certified general aviation planes.

Kit manufacturers often advertise low build times. All I can say is that these claims are always way optimistic (ask me how I know!).

There are few things in life as exciting as strapping into something that you just invested 3-4 yrs and lots of $ into and shoving the throttle foward for the first time!

Any of you experienced pilots have any time in a Tomahawk?

Mike,

Flew a Tomahawk (believe I mentioned it earlier) and it was ok for just flying around but nothing exciting and after a while you would get tired of it. Unless you are interested in buying something just to build time in find something you would like and keep it for a while.

John,

Yes, but I do not take the chance of the brakes holding the plane these days. I chain the tail down if there is not another pilot to help me start the engine. Have seen a couple of engines start, throttle either set wrong or go faster and in several cases the plane took off... without a pilot. Other possibility is to have it plow into an hangar or other planes, either case expensive and possibly deadly.

Its still a hoot to have others watch if they have never seen a plane propped to start. Kinda hard to break the chain I have so its staying put until I let it loose! Have looked into putting a starter on the engine and a "total loss" battery (charge it overnight before flying) system into the plane to eliminate this issue. Some airports are banning "hand propping" unless you have two pilots and there are times I want to fly alone.

Matt,

Restored several Aeronca's over the years and help with a Varieze and Kitfox. Am an A&P so have worked on just about every type small and medium sized planes around, as well as many airline types.

Like John and Tim said, you can build your own but its really a work of love as its going to take two years minimum if you start from scratch. You can get pre-built assys but then you are not within the "51%" homebuilt regulation and thats a whole other ball of wax.

Joe A