I think the "real" reason behind the 2nd amendment was to provide for future generations to take up arms against an oppressive government, just as the founding fathers (et al) did against the british in hte 1700s.

And yes, it has actually happened, right here in America, as recently as the mid-1940s.

Read all about it - http://www.jpfo.org/athens.htm

As for why I own a gun? Simple. Last 3 times I've had to call police (drunk drivers thru my fence) it took over 45 minutes each time. I'm not in the middle of nowhere, and there are 5 sherrif/highway patorol/city police officers that live within 5 minutes drive of me. No, a drunk doesn't seem to cause much danger, but considering I caught one of 'em trying to get thru my screen door and onto my porch, I feel much better knowing that I don't have to wait 45 minutes for help.

Just out of curiousity, what exactly *are* the typical laws regarding gun use? You guys are talking about killing snakes or other problematic animals - I'm assuming you live out in the countryside, rather than in the city? You can't fire a gun legally within any city, unless it's a life or death situation, can you? In Canada, you can't carry a gun anywhere in urban public - maybe it's ok for antique shows or something, but certainly not loaded.

Chris

No too sure about that. Even though many pilots are ex-military, and are well trained, I believe the SOP for hijackings was to do what the hijackers wanted and go land the plane asap. Killing the pilots was never a possible scenario. But it is now.

JoeA, you can probably shed some better light on this.

Man after my heart! Nothing like a .45 auto to get someone's attention, especially one that has been "massaged" by someone who knows what they are doing.

Kimber is my favourite and its accurate out of the box...

JoeA

Chris,
It is to my understanding ( haven't verified this) that you have to have 20 acres to shoot regularly. I have 5 acres and shoot only rattle snakes. And no you can not shoot within the city limits.

Each state has it's own laws regarding use. Then there are federal laws too. You really need to know ALL of these laws before you walk out the door with a hog leg in your pocket. There are many manditory sentence laws that the best lawyer in the world can't get you out of. Check this website for more info.

http://www.packing.org

and reaseach your area.

oh, that is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. I can just imagine all flights being full of armed passengers. You'd have a plane a day going down because one of the passengers got pissed off because his rubber chicken was cold and decided to squeeze off a few to get the flight attendant's attention.

While I am much less anti-gun than I used to be, I still do not trust most people to be armed. They just don't have the ability to control themselves. Just look at some of the things people do with their cars while driving. They've already got a 3K lb projectile that they will gladly point at any pedestrian, motorcycle, or other car that gets in their way. Now they should have guns while traveling?

One thing to remember is that most flight crew, and all sky marshalls are some of the most tested, poked, prodded and inspected people in the world.

Flight crew take a extensive medical then do a weeks training ending up with passing a test and a checkride in either a simulator or the airplane every six months. Sky marshalls have much the same thing.

Add to that the fact that most of us are ex-military and had a security clearance up until the time we left (and many of us even after we left) so have been investigated for years.

JoeA

Joe, I have zero issue with a sky marshall or flight crew packing heat. But the original poster suggested that all the *passengers* be armed.

I like the Ed Brown Custom Classic...I don't own one yet, maybe Santa will be good to me....www.edbrown.com

No..U DON'T TRUST YOURSELF.... U fear what you might do, and project that unto others...

The issue is Control ...you try as you might to control yourself, but deep inside you have these wild feelings that you struggle with...

I for one own guns simply because I enjoy them. I love to shoot. I have been a very active competitor with the rifle most of my life, as well as a fairly accomplished hunter. I approach the whole gun ownership thing as a hobby, one that has held my interest where others have failed to do so. I enjoy all aspects of the hobby, including reloading my own ammunition, casting my own bullets, and occasionally even buidling a gun. Both of my boys received their first .22 rifles at the age of six and their first centerfires at the age of twelve. They have both always known where the guns are, and how to use any one of them that is in the house; there are several that are loaded. Handling guns for them is a second nature as it has always been for me. Guns have never held that "forbidden fruit" fascination for them, as they never did for me when I was a kid. They have always just been a part of life. No more evil or dangerous than many other things we deal with every day. They have always played a big role in my life, and in my family's lives; I could not imagine life without them. That is why I own guns.

To reiterate what was said earlier: Biggest reason for ownership is that it's a great equalizer. Not all who carry are strong, able bodied men.

Congratulations to all those who see their environment as a happy, utopian kind of place where gun ownership isn't necessary since everyone is "intelligent".

Wishing I had such an blind, overly optimistic view of the world, life sure would be easer. Tell me how you do it?

rjp

Live in a city/region/country where you're not gripped by fear, that's how.

Most definitely not everyone around here is "intelligent", regardless of how you may define that, but there's clearly no need for gun ownership for self defence reasons. I've lived in 4 cities now in Ontario and Quebec, both big and small, good and bad neighbourhoods, never have I felt the slightest need for any kind of weapon to defend myself, and I'm sure the vast majority of the population in these cities would agree with me.

I don't think I have an overly-optimistic view of the world, I'm most definitely not blind to crime rates, gangs, criminals, etc. and I most definitely don't live in a utopia of any kind. However I do live in a society without daily fear of crime.

I never understood the 1st person argument so often used here?

so you say so? I don't agree with you. Try life around some parts of Seattle.

I've been in situations where being armed has been an effective deterrent, and so have several members of my immediate family.

So explain to me, who's right?

I guarantee you your outlook will change the moment you get mugged or something happens to someone you know..

rjp

For those in support of gun control, I promise not to use mine in your defense. :)

Well, I can only speak to my own experiences. I was just answering your question of how one can live with the view that gun ownership is unnecessary.

If life around Seattle requires gun ownership for personal safety, then why would I ever want to try life there?

This isn't a question of who's right and who's wrong - I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying you shouldn't carry a gun. What I'm saying is that I prefer to live in an area where guns aren't necessary, and quite grateful that I'm able to do so. Personally, if guns became necessary for personal safety around here, I'd move in a heartbeat. I realize that may not be easy, due to jobs, family, etc. but my and my family's safety would take priority over work.

Perhaps my outlook would change if I or someone close were to be mugged. Again, I can only speak from personal experience. I don't know anyone who's been mugged, nor have I been mugged myself.

One thing, my family came from a place (PI) where the only form of self defense was weapons, guns, etc. To them, there was no law enforcement you go running to when you're threatened. You dealt with it, and you dealt with it right now with what you had.

Now here we are- in the States - there are laws, there is protection. But as my Dad puts it - a CWP holder , "once you've witnessed just how easy it is to get taken out for silly things, you'll always be ready."

rjp

I believe that some of the non-Americans who have contributed to this thread don't realize that in some cases, there isn't a choice of where one lives, which can have something to do with owning a gun. It's not like many people in The States can just pick up and move to the right side of the tracks.

There are places in the world where being armed is a an absolute necessity for survival, and still (some) people choose to inhabit these places for whatever reason, ie. because it's their home, to make $$, etc....

Nowhere in the U.S. falls into this category, strictly speaking, but my point is that most people in the world choose not to live in Canada. I don't want to live in Canada. I don't care if you can guarantee me that no one in my family will ever so much as have their ass pinched, you can keep the flipping place.

There are a variety of reasons why Canada, New Zealand and Australia don't have our murder rate, and gun ownership rights are only a small part of it. Michael Moore actually got that part right in BFC, oddly enough. But of course you guys know this. The freedoms that we enjoy in the U.S. come at a price, make no mistake about it.

I own a gun, but I hardly ever shoot anyone. And I live in the center city of L.A. and I'm not "living in the grip of fear, blah, blah, gurgle, snort...", or whatever the fuch you wankers imagine an American to be. Just stay home and you'll be safe, 'K ? ;)

Signed,

Angry, annoyed gun-owning pinko/redneck hybrid.

I did sort of allude to it in the last post I made - I am surmising that the difference is handguns (they are the main difference in gun ownership to all those other countries). I'll admit the statistical basis for my complain is worse than weak.

I have to reiterate that I have no problem with (responsible) people who want a gun to shoot/hunt/collect. This includes handguns for those purposes.

But I still disagree on the "protection" aspect. Whether it is law abiding citizens or gangbangers carting around hand cannons for "protection", it (appears) obvious that more guns on the streets overall leads to more people being shot.

It is important to add that I would expect large cities to have way more of a problem (allied to more crime). It is fair to say that NZ has a small population, but Australia doesn't really (30m people, incl two large cities) and just look to Europe. All the big cities have gang problems, but the US leads the way in gang problems with guns.

To change tack slightly. So... lets say people can carry guns for protection, and it is semi-widespread. Maybe you need a licence like a car, and (of course) there will be people who carry (drive) without the licence. So be it.

You can't drive a car when you're drunk. Can you/should you carry a gun?

I earlier suggested that hardly anyone on this board has actually used a gun in self-defense.

Let's find out. Have you personally aimed or fired a gun at another person in self-defense?

Stories you heard from others, times when having a gun made you "feel" safer, times when you felt safer because you "displayed" your gun, and experiences by non-civilians DO NOT count.

As for 'needing' a gun. I don't 'need' one. But I do have the CHOICE. Freedom is about choice. I have the freedom of choice to choose how I defend myself. After all, court case after court case in this country have shown that the police have NO RESPONSIBILITY for protecting individuals, only society at large.

If availability were the problem, then the increase in gun ownership would have resulted in an increase in deaths. Simple DOJ statistics show the decrease in violent crimes and in shootings. They are pretty simple statistics, and can't really be jacked around with much to obscure them. Also looking at how many firearms have been sold over the last few decades. Again, the increase in guns in private hands, and the decrease in deaths would indicate it is NOT availability that drives firearm related homicide.

As for Americans not being responsible enough. Roughly half of the adults in this country own at least one firearm. If we were not somewhat responsible about it, accidental shooting injuries and deaths would be through the roof. I'm talking 120 million plus adults in this country. So I don't think it's irresponsibility.


I think the big thing you're failing to realize and differentiate between is the difference between a law abiding citizen, and a criminal.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime. ~~ Cesare Beccaria, quoted by Thomas Jefferson "

A law abiding citizen is not inclined nor determined to commit crimes. A criminal is.

America has a much different society than, I will gamble, you are used to. A lot of it does sadden me. Gangster rap, movies and music glorifying crime and drug use. The apathy of the youth today, and the sad lack of parenting because people are too busy to raise their kids.

I can't carry a handgun, but I have more freedom than you. Why? I can ride my bicycle around the largest city in the country (1 million people - big enough to get unsafe) through dodgy areas... at night... and not fear for my life.

Something's different.

One of the things is that no-one is going to pull a gun on me. Full stop. We have lots of rifles/shotguns, few handguns. We have no national mentality of using guns for crime or protection from crime.

You're touching on some good points, and still making some false assumptions.

In the US, most states have a provision for citizens to obtain a license to carry a concealed handgun for the purpose of self defense. The anti gunners cried about blood in the streets and shoot outs over fender benders... EVERY TIME they cried the same things. But it didnt happen.

I think you're still associating an object with a behavior. You seem to think that if an ordinary law abiding adult were carrying a pistol, they'd just haul out and shoot over any slight.

I know many people who carry, and participate on a couple very large firearm related forums, and have only read barely a handful of stories where someone had to even draw their weapon, much less fire it.

You should also consider, showing a firearm is very often enough deterrant to make a would be rapist/mugger/attacker change his mind. Self defense with a firearm doesn't mean someone has to be dead or shot. ;)

To your last point, as mentioned, many states in the US do have a license for carrying a firearm, and I can say without a sliver of a doubt, carrying while intoxicated IS a crime.

We do have laws and regulations and licenses... but you need to be able to differentiate between those who obey them, and those who don't.

That's not about freedom, that's about your 'feeling of security'.

I can ride my bike through rough neighborhoods, unarmed. Whether or not I get through unscathed has nothing to do with freedom. It has to do with society.

OK, I come at this from a slightly different angle (still).

Why do so many people get shot?

It's mostly due to the segments of society they choose to associate with.

Again, let me mention, about 70% of gunshot victims in this country have a criminal record. What does that tell you?

A .45ACP can be a good weapon to use but a .45LC revolver has that sound when being cocked that gets a person's attention.

That said, how many of you have been shot at? Try having the building you work in shot at because someone wants to see what their semi-auto can do. Or because of turf warfare spilling over to the work district. Or finding three dead drug dealers on your office's doorstep in the morning. Or having your position targeted by terrorists. Trust me, none of those situations will leave you wishing you did not have a weapon.

I own for hunting/sport/protection. It is my choice. I would not force others to own if they don't want to/feel the need to. Please don't suggest that I should not because you feel it is better for me. We have the freedom of choice and many of us have put our lives on the line to ensure others maintain that freedom. I am very appreciative of being able to disagree with others and of being disagreed with.

Oh, I'm first generation American.

That guns are too easily available to criminals?

That criminals want to shoot each other (in NZ, killing ANYONE for any reason, appears to be pretty low on the list of goals for even really hardened criminals).

Cam, do you know what it takes to purchase a gun in the US?

It's really not that easy.

And yeah, it's mostly criminals shooting other criminals. I have no problem with that. Call it natural selection.

Although, I have a problem when they affect innocents, and when people are afraid to go to certain places. We have a problem with a 'revolving door' justice system here. We need harsher punishments and longer prison sentences to keep the criminal element off the streets.

jyl,

I live in a rural area so my experience may be askew, but on two occasions I have used a firearm as a deterent to folks who have come on my property without cause at hours that made them suspect.
FYI, the only thing I hunt, besides the dreaded groundhog, are clay pideons and the occasional Corona beer bottle coup attempt, which I dispatch with alacrity.
BTW, I am a fairly large human, but odds never favor the innocent in an unfair fight. It is problemmatic with intruders whether it is fair or not.

Yeah, but your jails are full too. You have one of the highest jail populations (percentage) in the world.

I think you probably just generally have a crime problem. Crime might have gone down recently (due to tougher sentences etc), but I dunno if that has an enduring effect or not. I hope so.

I think what our friends outside this country fail to realize is why we have the kind of crime we do in this country. It's a societal problem, not a gun problem. I guarantee that murders and violent crime would continue in this country at the same rate with or without guns in our society.

And I have never had to use a firearm for defense.

- Skip

Agreed on all accounts.

I think I'll shut up now - I'm imagining up a scenario for you which is impossible. It is probably less about gun control and more about the attitude (amongst (especially) criminals or law abiding citizens) that carting around a gun is necessary in case you need it.

The need for a gun probably doesn't cross anyone's mind much here. I guess that is the main thing. It appears criminals settle their disputes the (extremely) old-fashioned way - with blunt or sharp objects.

Cam, there is a reality here that, even though remote, bad things can happen to good people, even in good areas of town.

We all have insurance on our cars. Carrying a sidearm is just insurance. That's the way we think about it here.

It's always been quoted and applied to many things. "it's better to have one and not need one, than need one and not have one"

I was on a trail for a home invasion, double execution of the homeowners. Can't say a gun would have helped, they were woken up in the middle of the night in bed with two guys with guns in their faces. What they did to this married couple was absolutely sickening before they killed them. Have a gun now.

How about the LA Riots 10+ years ago. Had friends who had cinderblocks thrown on their cars from bridges. How about Reginald Denny, the trucker who got pulled from his truck and was almost beaten to death while the police watched on TV from blocks away. How about the well dressed black man in a suit who after the riots said maybe next time instead of burning down their neighborhoods, they come out to "Whities" house.

How about in urban disaster planning for the big earthquake in Los Angeles they tell you you need three things, food, water and something to protect the first two.

Mormons are supposed to keep supplies for something like a year or more, I don't remember exactly. Anyway, a friend of mine says his disaster survival plan is that he has a 357, and a list of where the Mormons in the neighborhood live.

That is so bad. :D

Unfortunately many violent criminals walk free because our legal system and jails are clogged with non-violent drug offenders.

Not to mention many of the people shooting at each other are doing so due to conflicts within the US multibillion dollar black market that our modern day prohibition spawns.

If the US were to decriminalize recreational drug use I guarantee you that you would see a dramatic drop in violent crime in america, plus you would have the added benefit of having the jail space to put violent criminals behind bars for a very long time.