F1: so can we now ask, "wtf is up with Ferrari?"
 

ok...are we deep enough into the season to ask, "what is up with Ferrari?"

Just bad luck? Overconfidence in the off season? All Bridgestone's fault? Drivers not making necessary adjustments for new rules?

What about BAR's violation and subsequent point deductions and race suspensions for two races.

Looks like it might be the tires. Maybe it's time for Ferrari to go with the Michelins?

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/050509160835.shtml

I'm sorry, were the new rules supposed to make the races more interesting? I am finding that most of the drivers are holding back in an effort to save tires and engines.

"Well, I am 10 seconds behind the leader, may as well just pace myself because I dont want to wear out my car trying to catch him."

Sorry, its not cutting it for me. I am finding this years races to be pretty boring compared to years past. Yeah last weekend was exciting watching MS and Alonso battle it out even though the faster car was forced to follow for 10 laps because the slower car would not let it pass. I thought the new rules were made to get more passing and more excitement?

Monoco is the passless race so basically after the qualifying we will have an pretty good idea who the top 10 will be..... unless their tires fail. Which is very likely on that road course.

So one of 2 things will happen there will be horrific crashes from tire failures or everyone will be driving 75% to conserve their cars.... really exciting.

The Tire rules are stupid plain and simple and its making the races more dangerous.
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Don't mean to hijack this thread but I really want to know what channels these races air on. I always see the highlights on ESPN but i never seem to actually find the race. I don't have any special cable just the basic stuff. Speed?

Stupid question: what's the "Tire Rule?" TIA

http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesandregs/13/511.html

From 2005, drivers will have access to far fewer tyres and must make a single set last through both qualifying sessions and the entire race. A tyre can only be changed during this time if it is punctured or damaged.

Races are on Speed. CBS will broadcast a handful (they've done the last two, but Speed does their own broadcast the following Friday, and has much better analysts).

The tire thing is bull****. I think I'd probably slam on the brakes about 2/3 into the race, just before the pit area, and limp in with four damaged tires.

But I did notice one thing. THOSE F1 CARS ARE FAST. I think most folks would have trouble maintaining consciousness. Looks like Niagra Falls in a barrel would be a smoother, safer ride.

Ferrari needs to dump Bridgestone. A blind man with a white cane can see that. How many races have BS won this season? The new tyre rule rules!

LeRoux

I wonder if there are any rules against damaging your tires prior to a pit. Possibly a puncture device that puts holes in all 4 on pit row 20 feet before the stop.

I was doing some research, if you want to get somewhat close to what an F-1 car drives like go drive a 125 Shifter Kart. I know there is a member here with that name I am sure he can attest to the sheer speed and performance of them.

I am still trying to reason why I am still playing with cars and I an not racing a shifter.

Hell, this is the first remotely interesting season in what, 5 years or so ?

Renault kicking ass early and sorta running out of steam (a bit)...
McLaren - Finally - coming back in form
Toyota - Finally - making good use of their budget and running real well
BAR apparently on the right track again, never mind the cheating hickup

Ferrari's not doing anything wrong per se, the competition finally pulled their heads from their collective asses (Williams excepted) and challenged Ferrari.

Can't blame them for sleeping a tad at the wheel this season after winning countless championships in a row - it's hard to stay focused when you're at the top. Add to that a clear Michelin egde over bridgestone, and you finally got an interesting season.

My predictions: Ferrari to come back and mount a serious end of season challenge. Renault to run short of developments (smaller budget) but Alonso making do till the end thanks to his nice cushion of points and the small gaps in points allocations between 1st-2nd-3rd...
BMW pulling out of Williams sooner or later and purchasing SAUBER to build their own team next year....
Mark Webber actually causing a bad wreck with one of his patented "you can't pass me" moves.

Another comment, the nice thing about CBS coverage is that is makes you realize how good the SpeedTV coverage is !

All I hope for is a nice rain about 2 laps in and a win by Minardi...

If you are looking purely at wins and losses, yes, its a more interesting season. The new rules have given other drivers an opportunity to shine.

If you read the quotes I posted above you have to agree, no one wants to watch a race where the drivers are only giving 80%.

I thought racing was about going all out to the finish. Who can get there faster. Not, who can get there faster while managing blistering tires and failing engines.

These rules were supposed to lower team costs. I think the opposite has happened. 1 set of tires per weekend will not cut costs. It will increase R&D spending to find the perfect compound that will last and give good traction.

Same goes for the engines, the FIA has caused teams to spend lots of money on R&D to develop an engine that will last 2 weekends. I think it might have been cheaper to let them change the engines when they need to without penalty.

All that R&D for a V-10 to last 2 weekends and now they have to develop a V-8 to do the same and be competitive. [sarcasm]Yeah that has saved the teams millions I am sure.[/sarcasm]

Like I said before Carburetors and restrictor plates are not too far off.

Also Kudos to drivers like Fisi and MS for pushing their cars hard and running fast laps of the race. The most exciting thing about Italy was MS's ability to run laps faster than the rest of the field and up through it. Spain looked like a repeat.

When driving at 100% no one drives as well as MS in these races. When throttled back to 80% they are all about the same then its more of a game of good tires than driver ability.

Yes its on Speed most of the time.

Combination of things. Ferrari raised the bar and the competition was slow catching up...this coupled with the fact that there are a couple hot drivers on the rise have made it pretty interesting. Stay tuned race fans... I think the end of the season is going to be the best in years.

But Bridgestone does suck.

Does MS realistically have a chance at winning the championship this year? What does he have now, 1 point? At what point is it mathematically impossible?
I am a McLaren fan and it was nice to see Kimi finally win a race. He just needs to not get so excited on the podium. Jeez, I thought he was going to fall asleep. I guess that is why he is the Iceman.
My wife keeps asking me about the new rules and I have yet to explain them to her without them changing.

So true, Bernie Ecclestone needs to go away he is trying to ruin F1 by limiting everything (technology, cost, etc). The top teams are always going to spend what ever it takes to find the last .0001sec

All I know is it s@cks being a JV fan. Has that guy lost the will to live? He has certain found the will to blame everyone and everything but himself! He can't even out qualify his teamate!
I miss watching his fathers old races cause his son hs become a spoiled self serving brat thats not fast enough to get ot of his own way.
Steve

Agreed... I was hoping for a JV resurgence after the penultimate race, but in spain he was back to his normal 12-14th spot in the race. It looks bad when Massa is a second a lap faster... JV is the new Panis, with attitude ;-)

On the previous topic, I actually don't mind the tires tule...I just wish they'd also ban refueling and we'd go back to 80s style races where drivers have to manage their cars and think a bit. Oh, and pass people on the friggin' track !!! The end of the race would be fascinating, people who saved their tires more mounting comebacks, front runners running worn tires etc... I also am no fan of the V8 rule but remember the V8s are going to run around 20000 RPM, they should still sound exciting !

Gotta agree with Deschodt... bring back the 80s...turbo'd cars. no refuelling and no new tires...and who made it exciting...Senna, the Prof, Nige and Nelson.

Never anything boring about that...

The refuelling and tire changes are great ways to bring the teams more into the action as opposed to the driver...

Its all swings and roundabouts....its not about money, except for how much BE gets to trouser...

Its also all about trying to keep people like BMW/Merc/Honda in this game and not let them realise they would actually be better investing in other racing forms where the car resembles a road car.

I'll go against the tide here, and say that I like refueling and tire changes. You get the drivers going 10/10s, and bring the team aspect into the sport. More importantly, it becomes a chess match as to pit strategy.

That being said, I can also see the attraction of fuel 'em up, and let 'em run...may the best driver win.

I agree with that.
As with most sport they are ruining F1 with too many rules IMHO.

Cutting cost by limiting tires? WTF how much of a F1 budget is spent on Tires?

Besides F1 has always been the ultimate racing series with the ultimate cars... start cutting back and it might as well be CART.
Not that I don't like CART, I do, but your average Joe already can't tell the difference between F1, CART, or IRC.

Just my two cents.

20 million? Look at this.


Wind Tunnel Operation :
Ferrari 11.25m$
McLaren 9.96m$
BMW-Williams 9.76m$
Toyota 8.95m$
Sauber-Petronas 8.78m$
B.A.R.-Honda 7.80m$
Renault 6.18m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 3.95m$
Minardi-Cosworth 3.20m$
Jordan-Ford 380,000 $
Total 70,210,000 $


Cars Manufacturing Costs :
Toyota 3.40m$
Ferrari 3.20m$
McLaren 2.70m$
B.A.R.-Honda 2.40m$
BMW-Williams 2.25m$
Sauber-Petronas 1.70m$
Renault 1.62m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 1.45m$
Minardi-Cosworth 750,000 $
Jordan-Ford 640,000 $
Total 20,110,000 $


Research & Developement :
McLaren 25.50m$
Toyota 25.10m$
BMW-Williams 22.60m$
Ferrari 22.40m$
Renault 18.70m$
Sauber-Petronas 18.06m$
B.A.R.-Honda 17.40m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 11.40m$
Jordan-Ford 7.50m$
Minardi-Cosworth 7.02m$
Total 175,680,000 $


Operating Cars At Testing
McLaren 64.96m$
BMW-Williams 63.04m$
Ferrari 62.72m$
B.A.R.-Honda 56.64m$
Toyota 53.06m$
Renault 28.40m$
Sauber-Petronas 20.00m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 4.88m$
Jordan-Ford 4.20m$
Minardi-Cosworth 1.78m$
Total 359,680,000 $


Team Salaries
Ferrari 48.30m$
Toyota 44.40m$
McLaren 36.12m$
BMW-Williams 35.64m$
Renault 34.20m$
B.A.R.-Honda 33.30m$
Sauber-Petronas 32.40m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 26.28m$
Jordan-Ford 15.40m$
Minardi-Cosworth 7.60m$
Total 313,640,000 $


Engine Budgets :
Toyota 192.50m$
B.A.R.-Honda 181.50m$
BMW-Williams 169m$
Ferrari 165m$
McLaren 144m$
Renault 121m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 66m$
Sauber-Petronas 28m$
Jordan-Ford 10.50m$
Minardi-Cosworth 10m$
Total 1,087,500,000 $


Driver Salaries
Ferrari 51m$
McLaren 31m$
Toyota 24m$
Renault 11m$
B.A.R.-Honda 8m$
BMW-Williams 8m$
Sauber-Petronas 4m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 3m$
Minardi-Cosworth 600,000$
Jordan-Ford 500,000$
Total 141,100,000 $


Travel & Accommodation :
Ferrari 17.61m$
McLaren 12.72m$
Toyota 11.74m$
BMW-Williams 9.10m$
B.A.R.-Honda 7.72m$
Renault 7.33m$
Sauber-Petronas 6.65m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 4.90m$
Jordan-Ford 4.16m$
Minardi-Cosworth 950,500 $
Total 82,880,000 $


Operating Cars @ Races :
Ferrari 35.85m$
Toyota 28.30m$
BMW-Williams 26.16m$
McLaren 24.13m$
Renault 23.90m$
Sauber-Petronas 22.89m$
B.A.R.-Honda 22.14m$
Jordan-Ford 20.33m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 18.59m$
Minardi-Cosworth 9.77m$
Total 232,060,000 $


Corporate Entertaining :
BMW-Williams 10.04m$
Ferrari 8.91m$
McLaren 8.24m$
B.A.R.-Honda 6.69m$
Renault 6.21m$
Toyota 5.76m$
Sauber-Petronas 3.96m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 2.59m$
Jordan-Ford 1.35m$
Minardi-Cosworth 400,000 $
Total 54,150,000 $


Final Costs :
Ferrari 426.24m$
Toyota 397.21m$
McLaren 359.33m$
BMW-Williams 355.59m$
B.A.R.-Honda 343.59m$
Renault 258.54m$
Sauber-Petronas 146.44m$
Jaguar/Red Bull-Cosworth 143.04m$
Jordan-Toyota 67.78,m$
Minardi-Cosworth 39.25 m$
Total 2,537,010,000 $

I believe the tire rule was aimed at slowing the cars down, not reducing tire costs.

Restrictor plates might be the answer. NASCAR rules, right? In all seriousness, to answer the original question of what happened to Ferrari? Look for Ferrari to soon trade on past racing glory while it's engineers develop a sports ute...or better yet, a popular hybrid vehicle that delivers superior fuel economy with italian style. ;) Maybe a 4 door sports sedan?

How could that realistically be tracked? Manufacturers will just hide costs in other projects.

You can't limit anything. If they have the $$$ they'll spend it. Any attempt to reduce costs increased them. Sure the new 2 race engines last ..2 races but they cost more to develop. The V8 will also incur new development costs... Ban testing and they'll build better wind tunnels. Ban those and they'll build supercomputers...

Testing is the big issue right now... It's expensive all right... The constructors except Ferrari have an agreement as to how many days they can test, but Ferrari on account of being the only good team on Bridgestones and having 2 test tracks and 128 test pilots decided not to join this merry band.... Hey, whatever...

It's just a matter of time until the constructors say "the hell with this pact" and go test some more. Just as soon as Ferrari wins a race, methink ! Me, I'd prefer a one tire series so you can judge the cars on merits. I'd force all the engine suppliers to supply 2 teams... Also force top teams to sell their one year old chassis to 3rd tier teams. Then reduce Aero some more... I still have goosebumps thinking of that race where Alesi ran on slicks in the rain - rally style, a few years back !

I compare what's going on in FIA today with what the AMA did to professional motocross in the late 70's. Honda was the team to beat and had a budget to match. Their factory machinery was always leading technology and this, along with large amounts of money, attracted the best riders. Ultimately this move eventually increased the general public interest in the other three manufacturers. But was it a good thing for the sport?

Now, regarding F1. Is it headed in the same direction? Unfortunately I think it is. The biggest threat to European dominance in this sport are Honda and Toyota. The recent rule changes don't necessarily benefit them or anyone else. But are they leading to a drive what you sell mentality like the one that killed the one-off exoctic motocross bikes of the 70's?

So what is wrong with using fuel as ballist? Is F1 turning into a spec class or what?

Oh gawd what a stupid thing for a sports car manufacturer to do!
:D

Again instead of adding rules upon rules how about limiting engine size? Like I said F1 is supposed to be the most technological advanced racing on the planet... bottom line that is there claim to fame IMHO
I also agree the the main purpose of the rule changes was to knock Ferrari down a few notches.

Agreed and it has worked. Congrats FIA! You have taken a team from world champion to struggling for a win in one season.


One of the things I hate about motorsports Can't beat them ban them.

Look into the Miller Auto's back in the 30's and their ban from Indy Racing, this was in response to the urging from the big three that the Miller 1-2-3 sweeps were bad for the sport.

Somehow the governing bodies feel a dynasty is bad for motorsports. I watch to see who will step up and beat the best. Unfortunately I don't feel this is happening this year. Rules have taken out the best and now other teams have a shot.

Eddie Irvine made an interesting observation about Ferrari yesterday:

Hey, Some of those figures (above) look like pro-athlete's salaries from many of our sports teams. Pretty obscene, in my opinion...It's nice to finally see someone else on the winner's podium besides Michael Schumacher.

nascar restrictor plates?
if the F1 world is supposed to be on the leading edge.... why not let them work on the leading edge of something that benefits me~!
how about limiting fuel flow?
that might lead to lean-burn technology and more MPG for my new car in 10years!


might lead to more efficient use of the energy available in the gasoline?

2.5 BILLION?

Hah.