Len, I have a brother too. You older or younger?

I'm actually younger by a couple years. Not a single person has guessed correctly who is older in 10 years if that tells you anything. He still has a highschool clique mentality and it shows. Being "cool" is the most important thing to him. I've had endless discussions on the topic of "true happiness" with him and even thought we were making some headway, but I think I was incorrect.

Len - what is the family business? What do you guys do?

Len, tough times for you.
My grandfather had a business, but only one son worked there. He now runs it and the other two are silent marginal partners. They do not interfere or engage on anything but yearly tax summaries. If they had worked together, they would not be friendly now, and the business would have died with my grandfather.
And even that guy's son did not join the family firm.

I like the idea of giving weekly balance sheet summaries to them. They do need to see what they are doing.

I know I would drive my son nuts if he worked for me.

Good luck, but I think your best avenue is to leave.

And your brother needs help. But most times, they will not seek it until near disaster.

Be very careful about loaning any money to relatives. I have learned the hard way on that one.

And as disheartening as it may sound, sometimes you just have to sever ties with "family" as you have your own to worry about.

It is a factory. We work alot with stainless steel tubing (cutting and end finishing) for automotive and consumer products. We also do tubular assemblies/products and CNC machining and welding and buffing and bending and vapor degreasing and grinding, etc.... I think you get the idea. We work in volume, we are not a job shop. We usually have production runs that last 2-10 years on a project.

We are not really a manufacturer, more of a service company to the industry since we don't make many finished products.

Okay, this is just a wild shot, but it sounds like you're about to implode: there's tons of businesses around the country that do that sort of work. One example: small bicycle manufacturers who build custom steel frames. Have you thought of checking our a like-minded business that deals in the same products as yours? You obviously have the experience.

P.S. I hope your dad or brother aren't reading this thread over your shoulder. :eek:

I thought of that, but I don't care either way really. I have been nothing but honest and have said all of this to their faces before.

Regarding the other fields, I have given it some thought. I have drawings and schematics out the yin yang from the last few years ideas. Like I said, lots of decisions. Oh yea, the imploding thing:

I'm as close as I've ever been, that's for sure. I don't see it happening though, I'm a pretty stable composed guy. Who knows though, when in Rome:)

I think you would find life just as depressing moving on to be employed by someone else. You obviously have your head screwed on straight and have seen an awful lot in your family business career upon which to build from. No time like the present to lay the groundwork for your own business...somthing that can be started on the side, time spent at night and on a Saturday. Perhaps its time to limit your involvement with the family business, toe the line on your hours and financial input, stop arguing and let go. Understandably, it will be incredibly painful given your time put into it and financial investment. I would get a clear understanding of what your liabilites are to the current family business and lay the groundwork for your own enterprise (which by the way it doesn't sound like your brother and dad are the driving force of the place), and when the day arrives..."you still want to be family but working with them in that environment is no longer an option". If your brother is really as nuts as you make it sound you have the responsibility to protect your family and your interests without his b.s.. Perhaps I've made this sound overly simplistic, but on the bright side...you're healthy, the wife's healthy...no time like the present...after the little squirt is on his way for a year or two then kick into gear.

edit: AND for what its worth, just spending a few hours a week on the side laying the groundwork for your own deal, and excercising your options, building contacts, working new ideas...makes you feel a whole lot better at night than just focusing on how screwed up your day job is. Sorta like making your own light at the end of the tunnel...

Thanks for the advice so far, everyone I am really grateful.

But I want to be sure I am clear. My father is one of the hardest working individuals I have ever known. He built this company right out of Vietnam from nothing and ended up making an OK life for his family. He did this all with very little business sense, pure sweat.

My brother is good at what he does and shows signs of brilliance every now and then. He is self taught at CAD, robotic and CNC programming, machining, hydraulics, controls, etc... He has built or assisted in building (from scratch) several complex machines that we use. But he's emotionally disabled (now there's a term:))

These guys should make for awesome teammates, either with or without me, I mean on paper it looks great. But in the real world it just doesn't work.

Videotape them in action. When they're calm replay it for them. Then they'll see just how foolish they act. I'm not kidding.

Lendaddy - every co I left, they went under - no joke! I'm serious. I am not sure it had anything to do with me directly but they went out of business or were bought out or changed the business focus. I am 6 for 6 to date!

Hmmm, I work for my brother in laws company and I'm constantly complaining that I am not replaceable for any reasonable amount of money. My jobs include, technical sales, R&D (working on my 3rd patent), machinist, welder/fabricator, repairs and modifcation, network and server admin (I built all the computers), and I'm second level management one rung from the top (my brother in law). My complaint has always been that they have never given me the time to train anyone else to do most of the stuff I do. I'm it and that scares me because we are small, I mean what if I got laid up in a hospital for a few weeks/monthes? I feel this is a dangerous way to run a business. Sure we could hire out the machine work, repairs and fabrication that we need, even the network stuff but a lot of our jobs are time critical and if a machine is down I usually get them up and going very quickly. I have repeatedly asked for an assistant whom I can train to to a lot of this work an have not gotten one. Now I have no plans of ever leaving the company but as the company grows (which it is) it's becoming harder for me to keep up with all the tasks I have to accomplish. I believe everyone is replaceable but in my case the company I've worked hard to build up would be seriously hurt by my absence. It's gotten so bad that if I take a sick day or go on vacation I am guaranteed at least one phone call asking for my help. Last year I fell off a ladder and was out for two weeks, I was restricted to bed rest but spent at least two hours everyday either on the phone to work on logged into the network remotely. If they could just give me someone with a decent brain I could have them reasonably trained in about 6 monthes, at least enough to get by while I am out. The sad part is that they know this but have done nothing about it.

Maybe it's my personality, I have a need to learn every aspect of a business. Prior to this line of work I was an executive chef of two restaurants, both went under after I left. People are only replaceable if someone is available and qualified to fill their shoes before the company suffers too much.

I'm close to that, too. Dot.com *****. I hated those schmucks with their la-la land b.s. business plans and no product to speak of.

Yeah, but the money was good...

Note to self: Don't hire LubeMaster77.

Get out of the nutty family situation...I had to do it four years ago and never regret it. Tell them you love and respect them but can't work with them, nostalgia and sentiment be damned.

>On the upshot, today is my anniversary 8 years

Awesome! You seem to have a great wife and a kid on the way. You have a supportive family on your own without them. Take your savings, sell off most of your car fleet (I'll take the '77 Turbo), refi your house if you have one, work at Home Depot if you have to (they hire fast, don't need a degree, good benefits) and go to school part time. You'd be surprised how quick and easy it is to get a certificate in accounting or CAD design to get into a good paying job. Then maybe you can work on the engineering degree you want.

Don't feel too bad about the decisions you made in life. You made one good one with your wife (I assume). I've made every right decision career wise, I love my job, am extremely financially secure, and own three Porsches. But I'm 30 and all alone in the world with no wife or family to speak of, and probably will be forever. Everybody's got their issues...count your blessings, you'll be fine.

better note to self - Don't let Lubemaster77 go!

Even better note to self - get my biggest competitor to hire Lubemaster77.

then arrange to have Lubemaster fired by a trumped up embezzlement, sexual harassment and espionage charges only after he sets up the product development and marketing/sales protocols that can only be done by him!

Do the charges have to be trumped up?

Update:

The cold war is heating up, the Cuban missile crisis is under way. The carnage yesterday was impressive. I really don't want to go too deep into detail, but it would make for good daytime drama.

Anyway, had a long talk with the wife and we have a basic plan that needs to be polished. I also need too see how things shake out here in the next week. Thanks again for the advice, I really appreciate it.

Can you take some vacation time, and get out of there for a few days?

Time to make sure you're thinking clearly, time for the family to get by without you for a bit.

I hope this involves moving to L.A. We need some real folks out here...

lol:)

Actually we discussed it and she IS going to check on the company that wanted her out there before. We also have potential in Chicago and NewYork. Who knows.

P.S. the fireworks yesterday were not mine, I was once again the pacifier.

You know...it's no fun without details. Kind of like a thread about hot chick w/ no pic's...;)

I really don't think these particular details should be broadcast. They got into it pretty good and some "stuff" came out. It's not my place to share what the "stuff" is, but it is impressive. It dousn'e really change my situation, but it does theirs. Ok, actually I can tell you that brother was asked to leave, but in the end did not.

I have worked at two shops where the owner/board fired a owners son. Things get tense for everyone. I bet the other employees also feel things unraveling a bit. For your sake and theirs I hope things are shaking out for the better. Isn't the small business side of manufacturing great! LOL

My brother and I worked together building our company for 10 years and wound up selling it to a Fortune 500 co. We also worked in our parents business prior to starting our own; one reason we started our own was to change the family dynamic. We all got along reasonably well, but that notwithstanding, there were definitely a lot of family dynamic / repression things going on. We now, similarly to Milu I think, are frequently brought into various companies as turn around guys – to figure out the cultural issues in a company, and help the company members design a way to change all that. It is doable; and clearly with all the crazy fighting stuff that seems to be going on with you, it’s something that your family business needs. There are a lot of consultants out there, many of whom are crappy, but many of whom are good; it would be worth it to all of you, and your own financial future whether you stay or go, to get one of the good ones in there for 6 hours, not all at once – maybe 2x a week for 3 weeks. Yeah it’s very therapy sounding – but it works. Don’t give up your investment in the business, i.e. all the time you’ve spent – by being just as reactive as your father and brother. Chart out a plan, and make them stick to it; but it’s clear you need some outside directed intervention to help.

Also - you have some stuff that could be indirectly contributing - ie it was going to be yours, now your brother is in, your father might have some guilty feelings about that etc etc. The stuff we see on a regular basis is amazingly similar to your situation; and so it is fixable. But the lightbulb has to want to change; and it sounds though like you all do, ie because you're all at the end of your temper's ropes.

Thanks guys, even more good info. Have any of you guys ever seen this work out in the end? I mean I'm really having my doubts.

I had a little "talk" with dad Friday and told him I was concerned with "pot smoker man" and how he's taking advantage of him and our company. He was oblivious to the obvious, I mean I sat there jaw agape as he straight face told me that this guy would never do the things I told him he was doing(to which there is no doubt). I was seriously stunned. (no I don't have video proof, which is what I know believe it would take to convince him).

Anyway, jump to today (Sat). I go in to run some production and there are a few other guys there as well. Brother comes up and tells me "pot smoker man" asked him why I "hate him" and went on to deny the charges I leveled the day before........now I want you to take that in for a second........... The man actually said "hate". Apparently dad filled him in on our discussion and he played it up a bit????!!!?????

WTF? Now I'm supposed to work with this idiot? Seriously, is that not f'd up? I cannot believe my father would throw me under the bus with one of our employees. I seriously think he's going insane. On the business common sense scale this move was a -6 on a 1-10 scale. Simply unbelievable!

I don't want to abandon ship and leave my dad to the wolves, but damn I can't deal with this, heck I don't even know where to start.

FWIW I do NOT ever get into this melodramatic BS, it's entirely not my style. In fact, the all-to-common drama is one big reason I'm tired of the place.

My current plan is to see if he would go for some kind of severance package if I leave. I have been there for 15 years and would like to see some return, but if not then so be it my sanity is more important. He doesn't owe me anything, but in my current position I have to ask. I have also advised him on many occasions to sell the company so he can retire in comfort with some security.

Oh well, stay tuned for the next installment of this jacked up journey.

Damn Len, you NEED to go for a drive in your 911!!!!!
One of the reasons I didn't go into business with my brother is the pot smokin'. I don't want to start a debate here about whether or not it's BAD or EVIL. I just know firsthand that it CAN cause normal people to do/say stupid things after years of abuse. Our thoughts are with ya.SmileWavy

Jeez, Len, I thought I had interesting times... sounds like you really have your hands full there. When the smoke clears, you'll see the clear path :)

Thanks,

I read a few of my posts back and realized there are HUGE gaping holes where information should be. But to be honest, I have no desire to fill those at this time, but rest assured there is much more crazy crap in this story.

Oh haha,

To be honest I couldn't care less if my employees partake of the wacky weed on their own time, but this guys is high all day. We don't drug test, so I can't "prove it" but there is no doubt. In fact I mentioned to brother that dad didn't think this guy smoked at work "cause he never smelled it on him" and brother couldn't stop laughing. Yea, it's that obvious.

Your dad talking to the pot head may just have been him trying to get the pothead to work for a better relationship with you and the pothead took it differently. Otherwise it was very bad management.

Talk it over with your wife and start looking at options. You need to get out and quickly, for your sanity and also to be able to maintain a reasonable relationship with your family in the future.

I have seen this type of situation in family businesses many times. I have never seen them work out properly, the best was an uneasy peace waiting to break again or some type of compromise that didn't satisfy anyone.

I doubt if he will go for it but selling the business may be the best option all round, especially if you and your brother get a start-up stake. It is also likely that the buyer would want you to stay on for a while as part of the sale.

Don't do anything in hot blood or on an impulse but start looking actively at options. For your own well being step back from the business as much as you can and give more time to your lady, let your dad and brother deal directly with the problems on the floor, only confront them with hard provable facts. Eg "pothead took all day to do this and it's scrap, what else did he do?" Be careful on this as if you're not careful it may start to seem like a feud.

Good advice from Milu. Without a lot of work and big mental changes, it's pretty grim. Don't start talking about severance, because then they know you're on the way out. I still think bringing in some help to negotiate is a good idea; when there's a non-family member moderating, perhaps craziness will be kept at bay (but you must inform this person about the underlying issues). Is your accountant a strong and helpful strategist? Or a family friend, esp of your father's?

Hmmm,

My father is not upset with me to my knowledge. I am pretty sure he would agree to "selling" me the business as well. In fact he has brought that up. By selling I obviously mean paying him out of profits/revenue. It is an option with other variables too.

The fact that he went to this tool and poured his guts out about me grinds me harder than anything at this point. I mean tomorrow I have to manage/work with this idiot and he's just the kind of hump that will want to confront me about it. This is dangerous territory as I may lose my cool on him. I just cannot imagine the reasoning behind spilling our personal discussions to an employee! Tough to take and it makes rational moves/decisions difficult as my mind keeps going to it.

Regarding bringing in a moderator:

Zero chance. Dad would never in a million years take advice on ANYTHING business related from a third party. He is VERY stubborn, and it is just one more area we differ in method. Which also puzzles me even more that he would discuss it with the pot-head. Weird times I say.

Wife wants me to leave no matter what, she's not forceful about it and will support whatever I do. The thing is, there are huge ramifications to just starting over and they have to be weighed.

SCCA turn workers have clear priorities on what they are trackside to protect:

1- Yourself!
2- Your fellow turn worker
3- Drivers NOT involved in an incident
4- Drivers involved in an incident.

Did you see number one? It's number one! I have great respect for your desire to not run out and leave your own father hanging. That's great. But not if it comes at the expense of yourself.

If a turn worker's only option to save himself is to run away and let others get hurt, that is what he is to do.

If only I were an *******:)

Actually today was quite something. I went in to work some more production and Dad showed up. The inevitable happened and I lost it. I tried my damnedest not to, but I did. 15 minutes later I was cleaning out my desk. It was ugly.

Maybe a half hour later he comes back (not sure why) and I apologized for how, but not what I said. We talked for an hour or so and it went pretty good. We cleared alot up and I think we have the beginnings of an agreement that can work. Basically he is going to retire w/full pay, which is what he says is all he ever wanted and was one of my original requests. There are alot of other personal details I won't go into, but we understand each other. He just wants to be comfortable that brother and I can work as a team.

There is still a hurdle with brother, but I think we can work that out. Until recently I thought we were golden, but who knows. I think it's worth this last attempt and I'm going to make the best of it.

Or maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment?