When do friends become lovers? Or lovers become friends? Relationships into my 40's

[scottmandue]

You want OT... I give you OT...

I must be nuts to ask such a question but I can't think of a more diverse bunch of folks.
The recent "why are you single" thread got me thinking... being a single guy in my late 40's.
All my married male friends tell me I rock and I made the right decision. Well, I don't remember making a "decision" I'm just an introvert and the few ladies I have met that I would like to share my life with were not interested.
Enough of my history.
So now (at this late point in my life) I have learned to be more relaxed around women and yet at the same time become more assertive as far as asking them out and such (perhaps that can be interpreted as I just don't give a hoot anymore).
Because of my new "attitude" much to my surprise and chagrin I actually have developed a dating life at this late point in the game.
being somewhat male/female relationship challenged I am rather confused with the female conception (or definition) of "friends".
First it makes sense that if your going to be lovers you will want to be friends... I mean you have to talk together sometimes right? and have common interest and enjoy going places together right?
This is where it gets sticky, I had dated a lady last year... and we were friends... but I wanted to go further... my friends wife counseled me that "all good love affairs start out as friends"... well a year later and she is long gone and I went through a rather painful separation because I let things go on and on and I got very attached and she never went beyond "friends".
Add to that weather women realize it or not if you have been dating for awhile and they come on with the line "let's just be friends" it is the proverbial knife in the heart of the relationship.
Because of this I have skiped the trying to be friends first and adopted a more "I'm the man, your the woman, we are going on a date" aproach that seems to be working better for me. Mind you I DO want to be friends (see how confusing this gets) however I think it is best to assert that I want to have a romantic relationship first then let the friendship develop from there.
Is that clear as mud?

Your comment, ideas, experiences, are appreciated.

Discuss...

[widebody911]

Friends -> lovers only works in the movies

You really need to read http://laddertheory.com

You tried to jump the ladder.

[RickM]

The "all good love affairs start out as friends"... advice is cliche and unrealistic. It's an ideal that many women (and some men?) hang onto.

I believe that the friends/lovers/mate designation is determined very early in a relationship. If you feel it's not going your way then don't hang long as you'll either get hurt or get nowhere.

I suggest you approach each woman with no expectations and let the sifting happen naturally. Balance is important as well....don't go the bed-notch approach and don't got the head-over-heels approach. Just be you...and be confident.

[gaijindabe]

Originally posted by scottmandue
You want OT... I give you OT...

Because of this I have skiped the trying to be friends first and adopted a more "I'm the man, your the woman, we are going on a date" aproach that seems to be working better for me.

SMD: The Old Sage say to the grasshopper "beware of the female jujitsu".

You seem to be learning, stick with your gut instincts..


Wide - that is blocked for many of us at work. Can you give us a synopsis?

[pbs911]

The ladder theory is great as a take it or leave it approach.

I think there is an adiditional way. Just be VERY straight forward. Tell her you would like to see her again, but only if she understands that your intentions in pursuing any further relationship with her is to end up as lovers. Then leave her alone. Do not call her. If and when she calls you she has accepted your terms, and remind her of this when she does call. The next step is very important. When you next see her make your move in a very short amount of time.

Women can't stand rejection and is one way to place yourself from the "friendship ladder" to the "lover ladder".

[Superman]

Originally posted by scottmandue
So now (at this late point in my life) I have learned to be more relaxed around women and yet at the same time become more assertive as far as asking them out and such (perhaps that can be interpreted as I just don't give a hoot anymore).
Because of my new "attitude" much to my surprise and chagrin I actually have developed a dating life at this late point in the game.

Well, the ladder theory is amusing and worth considering, but I just want to point out what I think is a key development here. We single men in our late forties are the sexiest males on the planet. Or so it seems. And not just because we look like Adonis. We've got too many miles and scars to be fearful, so we're brave. We're not expecting anything special, so we're gentle humble. We're not the boiling caudren of hormones that mercilessly controlled every thought and action over the last couple of decades, so we're patient and dangerously aloof. Yet we're still men, with all our body parts and all that comes with that territory....so we're perfect targets.

Ahhhh, patience. I've waited so very long for this.

I'd say it can work both ways. Most certainly, friends can become lovers. That's the best way, by far. The rutting pigs scene is not my favorite. Life's best times now are those quiet weekends spent napping, sightseeing, eating and, what was that other thing, oh yeah, boinking.

Oh, and this lady who wants to be friends but nothing more.....I'd probably give her a rest. Call her when you want a frustrating friend.

[mattxbart]

Don't ever listen to a woman's advice about another woman. Or, just do exactly the opposite of what they tell you!

If a woman is interested she will call you or let you know somehow...Beyond setting up the first date never call unless you know it in your gut that it is ok. This requires a lot patience, but it works. Keep it simple. Go after a lot of women at once to establish your own ladder.

Then of course there is the woman that makes you break all the rules because you are crazy about her and there is nothing you can do about it...

[bryanthompson]

You're running from something. Just club her over the head with something and drag her back to the cave. She'll get the idea.

*edited for you grammar nazis

[scottmandue]

I should add... has anyone actually been friends and had the relationship turned to being lovers?

Or as has been suggested is this a female fantasy that film makers have milked to the point that modern society assumes as fact?
and you know what happens when you assume...

[Drago]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I should add... has anyone actually been friends and had the relationship turned to being lovers?

Yes, but it only lasted one night...

[juanbenae]

i think it was chris rock that said "any woman you call a friend is a woman you just have not F'd yet" truer words not ever spoken.

if anyone of could figure out woman they'd sell alot of books. there are two types of women, coat racks and math books. one all hang ups, the others full of problems.

treat yourself to an escort every now and again. bust a nut, tip her, and head back out into the garage to work on your car, no hang ups or math problems.

[amity914]

I am confused, because my husband and I were friends first, then lovers. Date awhile, let her make the first move, she will let you know when she is ready. It seems simple to me. Just a womans point of view

HIEDI

[widebody911]

Date a while, let her make the first move...

Translation: feed her, entertain her, fix her car, do her handyman chores, all the while she's banging someone else. Maybe if she get's really desperate one night, she'll call. And maybe Ed McMahon and prize van will show up at your door with a million dollars.

If you're 'seeing' a woman but there is no possibility of getting to or past first base, you are not dating her; you are her intellectual whore.

[jyl]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I should add... has anyone actually been friends and had the relationship turned to being lovers?

Bac k when I was single this was the usual progression for me.

[Milu]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I should add... has anyone actually been friends and had the relationship turned to being lovers?

Or as has been suggested is this a female fantasy that film makers have milked to the point that modern society assumes as fact?
and you know what happens when you assume...

Yes. four times. But I am also a master of failed relationships.

[john_colasante]

... my friends wife counseled me that ...

As someone else said do not listen to other women regarding relationships, or do the opposite of what they say.

..."all good love affairs start out as friends"...

Incorrect. There may be exceptions, but this aproach will generally be unsuccessful.

...I have skiped the trying to be friends first and adopted a more "I'm the man, your the woman...

This is a much better approach, and an appraoch that women want you to take - although they will never say it. They expect you to take the initiative and seduce them. If you do not move things forward then you will be viewed as a wimp or in woman's language, a "friend".

[kang]

I'll gladly help with everything I know about women. Here it is:

[Moses]

The sad truth; Men are not particulary fond of women as "friends". Men generally prefer the company of other men so they can spit, belch, talk sports and wrench on cars. The handful of women regarded as "friends" are generally attractive ones the man would like to boink. Remove even the most remote possibility of sex and the "friendship" quickly fades.

[amity914]

Originally posted by widebody911
Date a while, let her make the first move...

Translation: feed her, entertain her, fix her car, do her handyman chores, all the while she's banging someone else. Maybe if she get's really desperate one night, she'll call. And maybe Ed McMahon and prize van will show up at your door with a million dollars.

If you're 'seeing' a woman but there is no possibility of getting to or past first base, you are not dating her; you are her intellectual whore.

WTF:Not all women are whores, Not all women want things before they put out. Most Women just want to be understood. If you want sex without putting any emotional effort into it, then go to the ATM, get some cash and go buy yourself a sure thing for the night. Doing things for her and buying things for her is not the answer. Respecting her is.

HIEDI

[jyl]

Gosh, you guys are a bunch of cavemen.

Okay, here is my approach to dating. Which was really quite successful, if I do say so myself, although now that I'm old, fat and boring I would probably have to resort to the club-on-head approach:

Rule 1: The kind of woman you really want is attracted to men who are confident, happy, healthy, independent, and doesn't have any need for a woman.

Rule 2: To become such a man, you want to be successful in your work, have plenty of interests, work out, have plenty of male and female friends, and don't bother to pursue any woman romantically. (Being gay also works, but tends to get in the way of the ultimate goal.)

Rule 3: Women will be attracted to you. When you find one that you like, you can permit a friendship to develop, again without pursuing her romantically.

Rule 4: If she is the kind of woman you want to be involved with, this will make her even more interested in you. (The other kind of woman will become annoyed that you are not pursuing her, which is the "avoid" sign).

Rule 5: When the woman is interested enough, then you pursue her romantically. By this point, the pursuit should be short and fruitful.

Rule 6: If the pursuit becomes too difficult, abandon it. That woman is not right for you.

Rule 7: If the woman shows any signs of being hesistant, unhappy, unhealthy, or cllingy, break off. That woman is really not for you.