So... what exactly is going on in France?

[bryanthompson]

I've been catching bits and pieces of this whole thing with the vote and the EU constitution, but I don't know what is going on exactly.

Does anyone have the cliffs notes version of what is going on over there?

[jyl]

French electorate has voted against ratifying proposed EU constitution. Inn France this is a binding vote meaning French govt now cannot ratify. Similar referenda are going on in Denmark and maybe some other EU countries, some are binding some are only advisory. But anyway without France the EU constitution process has hit a roadblock.

I don't really know the specifics of the proposed EU constitution or the arguments that swayed the French "no" vote.

My general feeling is that Asia and the US will beat up individual European countries over the next 20 years, unless those countries are well-organized both politically and economically. So I would think it is in France's interest to strengthen, not weaken, the EU. But as I said, I don't know the details.

[cowtown]

NYT and Merc News both said the major issue that got it voted down was fear of losing the regulated workweek length (I think it's 35 hours?) and socialized cradle to grave benefits.

Chirac's in deep trouble. The options now are to edit the constitution to make it passable, which would take years, or to have the EU basically in gridlock and just functioning as is.

[350HP930]

There are also some serious trade issues at hand causing problems.

Think of it as europe's version of nafta.

[88BlueTSiQuest]

Originally posted by cowtown
NYT and Merc News both said the major issue that got it voted down was fear of losing the regulated workweek length (I think it's 35 hours?)

35 hour workweeks?

Where do I sign on

<--- works 50-60 hours a week.

[CamB]

This is a pretty good Q&A.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4483817.stm

[tcar]

Not just Chirac in trouble.

France is in big trouble. Basically a socialist country. Flirting w/ bankruptcy.

Many also think that within 20 years France will be a predominately muslim country. Things are changing there...

[350HP930]

We live in a fairly non-socialist country that has been flirting with bankruptcy for decades.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by tcar
Not just Chirac in trouble.

France is in big trouble. Basically a socialist country. Flirting w/ bankruptcy.

Many also think that within 20 years France will be a predominately muslim country. Things are changing there...

France is also seeing unemployment at 10%. When you consider the economic and labor climates of the European countries, the US looks a whole lot better. It doesn't take a genius to figure that India, China, etc are making out like fat pigs in all this. Wonder what our resident race relations ambassador, Alfy, thinks of all this.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by jyl
My general feeling is that Asia and the US will beat up individual European countries over the next 20 years, unless those countries are well-organized both politically and economically. So I would think it is in France's interest to strengthen, not weaken, the EU. But as I said, I don't know the details.

Totally agree with the above. I lived in Europe for many years (Germany and Denmark) and they are more than just flirting with bankruptcy. Problem is that they have the same problem that we do (baby boomers retiring shortly and not enough young workers to pay the retirement costs) and their financial situation is much worse than ours is to start out with.

Taxes are at 70% for the high income range in many of the countries, sales (VAT) tax at or close to 20% for everyone and gasoline above $5 in most if not all, then you add in the unemployment in France and Germany (almost 30% in some parts of the East) and it starts to look really bleak.

That is the reason that I left Europe and returned to the states. Last thing I want to do is get in the middle of a mess like that when I am 10-15 years away from retiring and be a foreigner living in a country who is not real excited about paying for foreigners retirement.

France has never been one to "work together" with everyone else and prefers to go its own route. They might just do this one last time and screw themselves and their citizens by continuing this tact.

Joe A

[ubiquity0]

Originally posted by Joeaksa


Taxes are at 70% for the high income range in many of the countries, sales (VAT) tax at or close to 20% for everyone and gasoline above $5 in most if not all, then you add in the unemployment in France and Germany (almost 30% in some parts of the East) and it starts to look really bleak.

Where are taxes at 70%? That is scary!

Germany is 45% at the highest bracket, France 48.09%. Still pretty high but remember they don't have state taxes added to those figures.

[Racerbvd]

France has never been one to "work together" with everyone else and prefers to go its own route. They might just do this one last time and screw themselves and their citizens by continuing this tact

They worked fine with Germany in W.W.II.

Really, who gives a rats azz what is going on in france, they make sucky cars anyway.

[CamB]

No they don't. I used to have a Peugeot 106 Rallye and it was awesome. Way quicker around corners than any older 911, and with similar lift off oversteer.

[jyl]

My impression is that things are not quite bad enough in France to force decisive reforms. This is simply from watching European economic data, not from "hands-on" as I haven't been back to France for 5+ years. But in economic growth, unemployment, business sentiment, etc France is doing similarly to Italy and still a darn sight better than Germany. In Germany I'm hearing of the beginnings of real reform, but not yet in France.

The EU countries are going to get a real kick in the butt, as they have their own "India" in their backyard - the Eastern and Central European countries which are entering the EU and attracting work from France, Germany, etc. Plus of course service work is also going to India and manufacturing work is going to China, just like for the US.

Seems to me the EU has some advantages over the US in dealing with the decades ahead. The primary educational system is much better, the trade deficit is minimal, the structural budget deficit is not as severe, the social safety net is strong enough to smooth the transition, and the EU is basically as big an economy as the US.

The US has some advantages of its own. There's a lot of risk-taking capital here, large numbers of talented people have been allowed to immigrate, the graduate education system is very good, and there is a single government which in theory could act decisively if it were motivated to do so.

Admittedly the French make somewhat quirky cars, but I'd rather have the average Peugeot or Citroen than the average GM or Ford . . . Drove a Peugeot 605 diesel around Europe for almost a year and it was a great car.

[Aurel]

Look at it that way: if there was a referendum in the USA to incorporate Mexico as part of the Union, would you vote for or against it...?

Aurel

[pwd72s]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aurel
[B]Look at it that way: if there was a referendum in the USA to incorporate Mexico as part of the Union, would you vote for or against it...?

For it! Because then, working under USA economic & government rules, most current Mexican citizens would be too busy bidding for MacDonald's franchises there to cause problems up here. Some of the most hard working people I ever met are Hispanic. The French on the other hand? Aurel? Let's face it...most in France are commies or socialists...they love to work a wee bit, then party the rest of the year while a socialist Government pays for it all. Kind of sounds like a full professorship @ a USA university to me.... Paul

P.S: Mexico's problem isn't it's people, it's the current form of government...which is totally screwed up. Vincente Fox is an A-hole...a self serving A-hole.

[Aurel]

Go Fuch yourself stupid old fart. You have stricly no idea of what is involved in trying to build a research program @ a USA University. And you dont have what it takes to do it either.

Aurel

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by Aurel
Go Fuch yourself stupid old fart. You have stricly no idea of what is involved in trying to build a research program @ a USA University. And you dont have what it takes to do it either.

Aurel

Damned straight Aurel...Other than taking your physically impossible advice, I mean...you see, during my working life I dedicated what few skills I have to what the French consider to be an antiquated system...free enterprise. I haven't a clue about campus politics. Nor do I care to have one.

[CamB]

Actually free health care, a 35 hour working week and lots of holidays sound pretty idyllic. Unfortunately the French seem to have pushed it a little too far and it (obviously) not especially sustainable.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by Aurel
Go Fuch yourself stupid old fart. You have stricly no idea of what is involved in trying to build a research program @ a USA University. And you dont have what it takes to do it either.

Aurel

LMAO!

Ouch! man, he must have struck a cord. Someones tenure up for review?

Fight of the season - Aurel v. Alfred. Somebody start the thread that can put these two in the same forum...