The Libertarians have a troop withdrawal plan. Opinions?

[techweenie]

Well, somebody had to fill the leadership vacuum, and the Libertarian Party has stepped up to the plate.

Check it out -- article with links to the document:

http://www.lp.org/media/article_160.shtml

[Halm]

While many on this BB would probably consider me a conservative I think of myself as a Libertarian so I read the plan with great interest. First and foremost, I applaud the Libertarian Party for putting together a plan. I too think W needs to set out milestones for a withdrawal. Unfortunately, I disagree with too many of the LP precepts so I also disagree with the end result.

A few examples of things I disagree with. 1.) Techweenie’s assertion that there is a “leadership vacuum”. Rather I contend he doesn’t like the way W is handling the situation. 2.) LP starts by saying that there is low troop morale. Poppy Cock! Moral is terrific. I just attended a high level briefing with a 2 VERY high ranking USMC Generals and I can assure that that the Corp is more than fine. 3.) “The so-called “insurgents” are primarily Iraqis who have taken up arms against the occupying forces in order to protect themselves and reclaim their nation.” More Poppy Cock! These are political and religious extremists that want not only all Western personnel out of the Middle East, they want all Western Culture and influence gone from the Middle East and from the face of the Earth, if they really had their way.

I think we need more discourse like what the LP is generating. They are NOT whining with this plan. They are trying to provide answers. That is a lot more than we can say about all the liberals and most of the conservatives.

[island911]

As much as i like the LP, that "plan' is rather short-sighted.


excellent post, Halm

[fintstone]

I agree with Island...again. Excellent post Halm... As one who mostly leans LP myself...the one area I disagree most is on their isolationist policy regading war/the war on terror. Sometimes ya just got ta do what ya got ta do. With the porous borders we have now...I see it as our only short-term means of self defense.

[Moneyguy1]

When are we going to do something about those porous borders?

[fintstone]

When there is political will to do so.

[Moneyguy1]

And when will this happen? ANd what must the citizens do to MAKE it happen? Seems no matter how we in the border states urge action, Washington does nothing? Why is this?

[fintstone]

Because no matter what the current administration does, the left will find a way to villify them. Too risky and too expensive during a multifront conflict and record deficits. Get the left to push to close the borders and that right will be happy to do so....Much as when the right pushed welfare reform...and Clinton happily got on board/took credit.

[Moneyguy1]

fint..that really doen't seem to be the case. The current administration seems hesitant to do anything except token action. Mexican officials are handled so gingerly. I understand the motivation of Mexican citizens trying to better themselves (our favorite Mex restaurant has a cook that drives up from Sonora every day and has the proper paperwork), but we have also caught a few undesirables from countries other than Mexico (read Central America and the ME). It makes me wonder how many we have not caught. So where is the comprehensive long range plan to deal with the problem.

Folks down here, both "left" and "right" are tired of the influx. I do not see this as a philosophical problem, I see it as a security problem.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by fintstone
Because no matter what the current administration does, the left will find a way to villify them.

Please tell us how the "left" you so vividly imagine vilified Bush for invading Afghanistan?

How did the "left" vilify Bush for last week admitting man's influence on climate change?

[fintstone]

Dang Weenie...had to unintentionally read one of my kool aid posts again, huh? You need to talk to Wayne about why that "ignore" function is not working.

[CamB]

Fint, you gotta stop blaming the left for everything. Last I checked, the right controlled the government and can do what it wants.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, if you could look at what you say objectively, you would be horrified. You blame the left for:

- all economic problems - regardless of the president at the time
- the loss of all wars, again, regardless of who was in power
- all scandals/crimes involving right politicians (who are innocent)
- any (and all) situations which could reflect poorly on the right, usually while simultaneously arguing that there is nothing wrong.

In addition, you can't find a single circumstance where the right gets it wrong... or the left gets it correct.

And occasionally, you even have the temerity to accuse liberals of being the ones to refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and blame other factors...

[bryanthompson]

If you replace 'right' with 'left' throughout that post, cam, you'll have our perspective as well.

[CamB]

Yeah, but there are few people on this BBS who fit that category, and I for one am embarrassed for them when they post some stuff.

Now what would be interesting is if, in fact, you consider me to be in that category. I think I'm a bit more centre than that, and can see faults in both sides.

[Moneyguy1]

cam..I also try really hard to see both sides, but we both are "left" of the "extreme right", therefore, we are somehow "wrong" on just about everything!!!

WHo is left of you or right of you is a matter of where you are on the continuum.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by CamB
Fint, you gotta stop blaming the left for everything. Last I checked, the right controlled the government and can do what it wants.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, if you could look at what you say objectively, you would be horrified. You blame the left for:

- all economic problems - regardless of the president at the time
- the loss of all wars, again, regardless of who was in power
- all scandals/crimes involving right politicians (who are innocent)
- any (and all) situations which could reflect poorly on the right, usually while simultaneously arguing that there is nothing wrong.

In addition, you can't find a single circumstance where the right gets it wrong... or the left gets it correct.

And occasionally, you even have the temerity to accuse liberals of being the ones to refuse to accept responsibility for their actions and blame other factors...

I only blame liberals for the things they do....nothing more, nothing less....
For example, I do not think liberals create terrorists...only encourage them
I don't blame the economy or jobs situation on them...but I do blame them for misrepresenting both
I don't blame problems the US has in Iraq on them....but I do blame them for exaggerating them
I do blame them for sleeping with interns and lying under oath...even they admit it
I bllame them for misrepresenting the President's military record while refusing to release their own records
I blame them for manufacturing "news" stories and forging documents which malign our country's leaders
I don't blame them for our nation's high energy usage or shortages...but I do blame them for whining about it while dribing their SUV and opposing every other alternate source

The right is wrong in many ways policywise...but there is nothing sinister there....The President is particularly off base on immigration (but at least honestly wrong)..but it takes more time than I have to just refute liberal misrepresentations here...I have no time to attack the right. Since they generally tell the truth, the press already roasts them regularly anyways... while almost totally disregarding liberal gaffs. If the left in the US were just a bit more honest, I would have very little to go on....but I guess that is too much to ask.

[CamB]

By and large, the vast majority of liberals don't do what you say above. A few wacky ones fulfil a few of the criteria (and Clinton is a dead horse)!

The right does make mistakes and does many of the same things you accuse liberals of - just flipped 180 degrees. The smearing of Bush's patchy National Guard record was matched to the power of two by the Swift Boat Vets. You need to be able to see that there is probably a grain of truth in the accusations on both sides.

But to be honest, most of what irritates me is the insinuation that merely by opposing the way in which the war on terror is being waged (ie, in Iraq) brands me as a terrorist sympathizer or apologist, when I am far from it.

I just refuse to be a Bush sympathizer or apologist.

[fintstone]

Derogatory documents regarding Bush's service were admittedly forged by liberals. Bush released all his military records...Kerry still hasn't released his...although he promised to several times...if you really think there is some comparison...you are not as sharp as I think.

[CamB]

I agree - Bush won that little battle (despite starting from ostensibly a weaker position).

The Swift Boat Vets were vicious, and I feel neither they nor Kerry presented the true picture.

[Moneyguy1]

Actually, the "Swift Boat" fellas soured me on the entire campaign. THe choices offered by both major parties were far from the deep end of the gene pool...